All that talk about the X1s AF...

[RichardM8]

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Af is one core component, but it's not the whole picture of why some have a hard time swallowing the x1, and there are plenty of reasons to wait for an x2.

 

Agree with your points Edward. Yet, I guess that at least 90% of the current X1 owners and buyers knew and know they were/are up for a slow(ish) camera with stellar IQ. I mean, this is nearly impossible to miss even if you Google 'Leica X1' only once...

 

So it does strikes me as a little odd that when they have it, many people start complaining how slow it is. Duh?!?...

 

 

Wait for the X2? Given the speed at which Leica develops and introduces new models ('German' Leicas, not the relabeled Panny's) that could be a very long wait. And there's no way of knowing which way an X2 will go, if there's going to be one in the first place.

 

For now, Leica is selling more X1s and M9s than they are able to ship so a new model is probably not high on the prio-list...

 

Richard.

[h00ligan]

Correct on all points Richard! I agree completely. Would you feel comfortable shooting say - a work function. Nothing special or fancing, people eating, receiving some awards.. you know, stuff that assistants with poor point and shoots are usually relegated to? Do you think it would focus fast enough for that? This isn't a hypothetical, I have to do a charity volunteer awards dinner for the local no kill shelter.. and I'd love to say, I'll take the X1! But i honestly am worried it's so slow I won't have the fallback of burst mode (especially if flash is required) and I'm worried about autofocus missing the mark.. not to mention having people stand there posed for 3-5 seconds whilst it figures it out - and blinding them with the af assist beam should it rise from the dark.

 

It's really hard to say.. i'll probably take the dslr (blargh) .. but then... I have a camera with great IQ I end up not using... which is pointless.

[patrick parker]

Hello Richard,

 

Thank you for your post. I did not know about the sensor focus relation, and i'm glad I learned. What about the manual focus? Do you believe it may or will be improved?

 

Patrick

[RichardM8]

@ Edward if the occasion you mention is of some importance, it might not be the best testing ground. There's a fair chance it'll lead to a disappointment when you want it the least. But if I would give it a go with the X1 I'd use zone focussing to avoid embarrassing waits and unwanted fiddling to get a shot. Given the light allows for some smaller apertures with high(er) ISOs I'd feel comfortable. If this is not the case I think I'd grab my trusty old Canon 30D SLR with a Zeiss prime...

 

 

@ Patrick obviously I don't have a clue if Leica will solve or improve the manual focus gremlins and quirks. I do know that they are software controlled and operated so they could be changed or improved in the firmware. Fingers crossed... but I do have some confidence in Leica on this point.

[tom0511]

slow AF is one thing, but I have also the feeling there is quite a shutter lag even when the camera is pre-focused.

[h00ligan]

Tom, I am obviously a beginner but I don't see too much shutter lag when I zone focus.

 

On zone focusing, a little story from today. One of the few things I've been asked to do is shoot dogs for the local shelter. They know I am learning, they need the help - it's a win win. The photos don't have to be award winning, the photographer currently volunteering is.. well generous with her time but there are some downsides like huge watermarks and err, well anyway...

 

At any rate, I tend to practice when I have my girlfriend's dog over. The assumption is that if I can get decent shots in crappy light chasing around the little one, I should be more than able to capture better photos in abundant light in the controlled yard at the shelter with larger slower moving dogs. So after practicing with my dslr for a short burst, with its new lens which is really not well suited to indoor use (variable 3.5-5.6 15-85 USM) I thought, hmm, let me try out the Leica. I've shot the dog a few times with the gf1 with relatively pleasing results as the 1.7 lets me keep the shutter speed up.

 

So, I very quickly became frustrated that the x1 af had a difficult time locking on in either spot or 1Ph in either macro or regular af. The issue was the color of the dog vs carpet - and the fact she was chewing away on a rawhide.. had to hit the eye for contrast detect, nearly impossible (at least for me), even when I hit it, by the time focus lock would have happened she had moved.

 

So after about 5 mins of being pissed off, I decided to try zone with burst. Some shots worked great, some didn't but I saw some of the real benefit of zone focusing I guess today, which is you can portray so much character when you nail the distance. It's a VERY different end product than clinical sharp focusing of a dslr. I wish I could explain what it was like to see that on my own results as a newcomer... I guess you guys all probably have been there though!

 

I'm not directing the story of the day at you Tom, I'm sure you're well more advanced than me, I just wanted to add that I can understand a bit better now when people say 'maybe the restrictions make you approach differently'. I'm going to practice more, and hopefully get better with my distance estimates.

 

I'm not sure if this makes up for the slow af or overall camera operation.. it does however tell me that taking the time to learn more is a good thing and for those newcomers who are more used to mft or dslr - maybe it's going to take an extended evaluation to find out if the X1 is the right fit. I'm not personally sure if it is or not, but I now have more shots that look very different than they would have on a dslr.. I guess some people would say.. ss was too slow, or focus plane was too narrow, or any other of a hundred things - but personally I am excited that I accidentally on purpose was exposed to a bit more on photography today, through practice.

 

I won't post any pics at the end here because I'm sure nobody wants to see practice shots of a one eyed chubby chihuahua, cute as she is. to those who made it through, thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings. BTW< i'm not suggesting the x1 is the answer to shooting shelter dogs... It's not.. cats maybe!

[Guest badbob]

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I shot shelter dogs in Ventura county Cal. for awhile, and the example here is one of the tame ones. Most of the dogs were jumpy and difficult to shoot. That would be a real challenge for the X1.

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[NZDavid]

Have just used the X1 again for a couple of assignments, both of which required speedy AF responses (people in dimly lit rooms). It worked, but only just, and it was a right PITA. Sorry, the laggardly AF on the X1 is a major design flaw and I am now contemplating a switch. There is no way this camera can compete with a Leica M for speed. And it's not just speed either, it's also accuracy. OK, I am not very used to AF but on several occasions the focus just missed the mark, even when trying several AF settings. That's very frustrating for both the subject and the photographer. The low light IR beam is also a nuisance. In comparison, manual focus on the M is fast and, above all, fast. It's not just me who finds this camera slow. My wife tried to, so did others when I handed it round -- tiny PS cameras with smaller sensors beat it hands down! Yes, the X1 IQ is good, but it really needs to be better. My wife can't figure why people on this forum are so soft and aren't insisting on a better product -- especially considering the price!

[phancj]

Yup, AF is slow, but that is to be expected for such a tiny cam, but I managed quite a bit of nice shots with this cam, iso 800 seems to be optimal...attached pic of my boy while playing...lighting was not the best as it was indoors and room not particularly well-lit.

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[Douglasco]

I some times wonder when photographers complain about slow autofocus is wether we are becoming to used to the camera doing everything for us and then when we have to slow down a bit and think about how can we get around a paticular situation we quickly decide to blame the camera. When I do dog behavioural work every one wants an instant fix. Instead of tacking the time to find a real solution. The photo above was taken because phancj took the time and experimented with the camera a bit and in my mind took a very nice photo. For some of us photography is a hobby and we are not desperate to run around like headless chickens to get that ultimate shot.

[NZDavid]

Sometimes there is no time to be slow. Dogs may not mind waiting; people generally do.

[phancj]

I some times wonder when photographers complain about slow autofocus is wether we are becoming to used to the camera doing everything for us and then when we have to slow down a bit and think about how can we get around a paticular situation we quickly decide to blame the camera. When I do dog behavioural work every one wants an instant fix. Instead of tacking the time to find a real solution. The photo above was taken because phancj took the time and experimented with the camera a bit and in my mind took a very nice photo. For some of us photography is a hobby and we are not desperate to run around like headless chickens to get that ultimate shot.

 

Actually it didnt take much time at all, just returned from work, was a little beat but had my camera nearby. So my little boy came by playing and I decided to take some impromptu shots. Set it on auto iso but I think max at 800, and thats what the camera used. Aperture was 2.8 and auto shutter. I would say 80% of the shots were great so no, we dun need to be desperate and run around like you described...nevertheless if we are gonna be taking photos of dogs the whole day then I would use my dslr but you know what? coz my D300 is bulky and all I hardly use it now except for macro shots for work but for leisure and everything else I love my X1. Got many cams before, can say for sure this is the only one that is always with me! Still thinking about the M9 but the lack of AF is a bummer coz I am used to AF plus VR ( took me a few days to get used to without)..but without Af hmmm....

 

here's another shot taken same time...

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[phancj]

Sometimes there is no time to be slow. Dogs may not mind waiting; people generally do.

 

Actually I find dogs so much more difficult than humans haha...got lots of portrait shots with the X1 and quite frankly if anything I think the portraits of humans taken with X1 are phenomenal compared to other kinds of shots and thats the first thing I noticed when i used the cam. For portrait I also use auto iso and f2.8 and pics come out all great. I do not post pics of people coz I havent got permission plus it isnt nice coz many commented that the cam is overly sharp so pimples, wrinkles, other perceived facial imperfections are too obvious haha...but I do agree that if it is like a party or event and you are suppose to take many shots many of which are not posed then yes, this cam would not be the best under those circumstances. You gotta whip out that dslr then......but for portraits that are posed the X1 is phenomenal!

[NZDavid]

Great you got that hound to pose so dutifully! Agreed, I've had very pleasing people pics at f/2.8 @ ISO 3200 -- when they held still for a millisecond. Trouble starts, as you say, with unposed pics. I guess I find RF much faster than AF and I prefer manual controls. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it. I never know quite what AF will choose. I experimented with face recognition. It ignored the face and chose a handbag! Ugh! Gone to the dogs...

[brill64]

I've missed you stunod... thanks for brightening up the place again with your wonderful personality.

 

+1

[phancj]

Great you got that hound to pose so dutifully! Agreed, I've had very pleasing people pics at f/2.8 @ ISO 3200 -- when they held still for a millisecond. Trouble starts, as you say, with unposed pics. I guess I find RF much faster than AF and I prefer manual controls. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it. I never know quite what AF will choose. I experimented with face recognition. It ignored the face and chose a handbag! Ugh! Gone to the dogs...

 

For the X1, I use the spot focus aimed at the eyes which works great, my boy fidgets a lot so I time the shots accordingly...

 

I would need to consult you, I am seriously considering the M9 since my buddy's dad is willing to sell me his collection of M lenses, but I am myopic and astigmatism and now long sightedness so I wonder if I will be able to cope with MF, I love the sample pics with the M9, and given the great IQ with X1, I have no doubts about the IQ of leica cams....but being spoilt by years of AF...do I have to go thru a long learning curve for MF...what do you think?

 

The M9 is still teeny in size so is great considering the massive Nikon cams I am using....

[leicashot]

Have just used the X1 again for a couple of assignments, both of which required speedy AF responses (people in dimly lit rooms). It worked, but only just, and it was a right PITA. Sorry, the laggardly AF on the X1 is a major design flaw and I am now contemplating a switch. There is no way this camera can compete with a Leica M for speed. And it's not just speed either, it's also accuracy. OK, I am not very used to AF but on several occasions the focus just missed the mark, even when trying several AF settings. That's very frustrating for both the subject and the photographer. The low light IR beam is also a nuisance. In comparison, manual focus on the M is fast and, above all, fast. It's not just me who finds this camera slow. My wife tried to, so did others when I handed it round -- tiny PS cameras with smaller sensors beat it hands down! Yes, the X1 IQ is good, but it really needs to be better. My wife can't figure why people on this forum are so soft and aren't insisting on a better product -- especially considering the price!

 

I'm surprised your wife isn't wondering why you used the X1 on a couple of assignments. If you know it won't cut it, why did you use it? I bought the X1 to use for work, but on work that I 'know' it won't 'only just' past. For those jobs I'll use a faster camera.

 

Each tool has it's use and those that choose to use a Leica X1 must embrace it's shortcomings and enjoy the rewards. If not, b!thcing about it here won't do any good. Leica I'm sure were well aware of it's limitations upon release. You say the IQ is good, but could be better - well so could every camera, but in terms of comparison to other pocket cameras, none even come close at this resolution.

 

People should know by now that when Leica release a camera the general term "you get what you pay for" has it's own meaning, and should not be compared to the general market, as Leica is a niche product and doesn't compete 'directly' with 'most' cameras on the market (except Panasonic models).

 

It's obvious many people are buying the X1 even after knowing about it's limitations then bagging it and blaming Leica for their choice in purchase decision. I bought the X1 knowing well what it can and cannot do, and enjoy it because I am realistic about what I need to do to compensate for its shortcomings as well as accepting that it won't do everything like my Nikon D3s.

 

The X1 is a great camera for those willing to see the value in what it 'does' offer....and vice versa.

[tom0511]

For me the camera to compare is the Oly E-P2. (or gf1).

I handeled both cameras a couple of times over the last days and it is just a big difference how responsive the both cameras feel.

I understand the x1 AF cant be much faster due to the bigger but slower sensor (vs. m3/4)

 

So for me it is about finding out how much impact does the disadvantage of slower AF have on my images vs. the advantages of slightly bigger sensor. I have not yet a final conclusion.

 

Regarding comparison to Leica M or being spoiled by modern cameras, I have to say that small cameras I have used 10 years ago (Minilux, before that Minox) were faster to handle.

[NZDavid]

Phanji: Leica lenses are excellent, no doubt, and rangefinder focusing is spot on, but it does take some getting used to. Film Ms are also an option. Worth trying out at a dealer near you to see if you like it or not. There is only so much can be said here; in the final analysis you need to try it and see if it works for you. Hence all the fuss about the X1!

 

Leicashot: X1 IQ is excellent. Very pleasing. But is that enough? Maybe, for some. As above, you really have to try it for yourself. My wife's surprise was why so many on this forum (all male) make excuses for the camera's shortcomings instead of telling it like it is.

 

tom0511: Yes, the Minilux was faster. But it suffered from a software bug. Most reliable Leicas are, without a doubt, the mechanical variety!

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[phancj]

Phanji: Leica lenses are excellent, no doubt, and rangefinder focusing is spot on, but it does take some getting used to. Film Ms are also an option. Worth trying out at a dealer near you to see if you like it or not. There is only so much can be said here; in the final analysis you need to try it and see if it works for you. Hence all the fuss about the X1!

 

Thanks NZDavid for the advice. Problem is I am looking at the M9, not the film ones, coz for one there arent many competent darkrooms left, and I do believe film is really on the way out, if not totally...and I dun have any experience and probably wouldnt have time to figure out DIY processing...think I will go try the M8 in second hand shops, coz for the M9, they are sold the moment they hit the stores. I can get hold of one when I am ready coz the shop I frequent get them often but of course they are sold almost instantaneously. Therefore, it is impossible for them to let me try out the MF on the M9...I am worried that if I shell out the dole for the cam and subsequently the MF really frustrates me, then my wife will definitely be on my back! She has been supportive thus far...