Making a M10 Macro & Telphoto friendly - a modern Viso or whatever

[earleygallery]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Frank, haven't you already taken your suggestions up with Leica? I'm sure you spoke to them last year some time. Am I wrong? I'm guessing that they weren't very interested.

 

If I am wrong just phone your contact there again and see if they think that there's mileage in your idea. Ultimately if they don't agree with your vision it's never going to happen, so you can save yourself a lot of wasted time coming up with unworkable solutions to a problem which doesn't exist for anyone else.

 

Surely life's too short to waste on such pointless endeavours? Use the time with your family/friends instead.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[mjh]

So that means that Leica should NOT bring out a S2 junior or the newly rumoured reflex camera, with a full range of new lenses. This camera is priced according to the rumour between M9 and S2.

That rumour just describes what the abandoned R10 project was about. That project was cancelled more than a year ago. Leica may have revived it, but I doubt it.

 

Indeed such a camera would have to be priced somewhere between the M9 and the S2, and probably closer to the price of the S2. As the main difference between the R10 and S2 would be the sensor, the price would have to be the price of the S2 minus the difference in cost between the S2 sensor and a smaller FF sensor. Feature-wise the R10 would stand no chance to compete with the offerings of Canon or Nikon, despite its price tag. The idea of investing resources into developing “a full range of new lenses” for such an ill-fated project seems absurd, especially when they are still quite busy with the lenses on the S2 roadmap.

[Philippe D.]

I was NOT suggesting Leica spend R&D €€s on lenses for a Visoflex.

The answer is: EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder with Interchangeable Lenses).

No need for Visoflex, no need for new special designed lens.

You can use wide angles without external viewer, you can use tele, even 300mm or more. You may also use the bellows for macro...

It's just great.

[giordano]

So that means that Leica should NOT bring out a S2 junior or the newly rumoured reflex camera, with a full range of new lenses. This camera is priced according to the rumour between M9 and S2.

 

It doesn't mean they should, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't. All it says is that Leica decided they couldn't sell enough manual focus DSLRs to justify the development cost. I believe that to be the case.

 

The only reason I pointed that out was to suggest (a) that the development cost of your proposal (reflex housing plus new line of lenses plus the additional stuff required in a "M10" to connect with the reflex housing) would be greater than that of stuffing a full-frame sensor and either M9 or S2-type electronics into a revamped R9 body and ( that the market would be smaller.

 

Leica should stay as a niche product for the fanboys and diehards making 25KU per year and not going after the 11.2MUnits of high end DSLR system cameras.

 

I didn't say they should appeal only to fanboys and diehards. I said that a manual focus "R10" would only appeal to them, and that a new reflex housing would have even less appeal.

 

Without a true system offering how do they grow the volumes which is a need to attract better supplier pricing and drive down costs?

 

That's their problem, and it won't be solved by a reflex housing.

 

Even in its heyday - say 1955 to 1965 - the M was only ever a system camera in an incomplete and awkward way, requiring lots and lots of accessories to let it do things that come naturally to a SLR. Promoting it as "a system camera" alongside Nikon and Canon is just a joke.

 

Many people who wax on here and critique my suggestions do not even have a digital M they shoot with their film M and use Canon or Nikon DSLR with old R glass.

I use my digital M for the things it's good at, and my Nikon DSLR for the things it's good at - with a mix of new and old Nikkors.

If we are talking Marketing and you raise the point I think a M10 must offer something more than the M9 or a DSLR and my suggestion certainly offers that.

It certainly offers more - but that's irrelevant if it won't sell. And if you think if this forum as a focus group, you're getting a pretty strong steer that the existing M market isn't interested. But people here are almost all enthusiastic Leica users: what research have you conducted among people who only know DSLRs?

The question is what else can Leica do to preserve the M digital line up? I am very keen to learn?

Speaking for myself, all I want is for the M10 to be no more than 60% of the price of the M9, to have no problems with IR, red edges, and so on, to have accurate electronic framelines that only show the frame for the lens in use, and to have a self-adjusting rangefinder that can't be put out of whack by a bit of bush travel. And maybe a couple more buttons including the AE-lock one that Lars and I want.

[Guest BigSplash]

The answer is: EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder with Interchangeable Lenses).

No need for Visoflex, no need for new special designed lens.

You can use wide angles without external viewer, you can use tele, even 300mm or more. You may also use the bellows for macro...

It's just great.

 

Philippe you may very well be correct!

 

Earley Gallery, yes I did mention the Viso idea to Stefan Daniel last year where he eluded to LiveView or an EVIL type solution as a technology that was potentially the future and one that could potentially, perhaps, maybe obsolete DSLR's at some point. He did recognise the need for Telephoto and Macro and did agree that this was a potential market opportunity for Leica and one that they would want to address at some point.

 

I left the discussion there believing that EVIL would emerge at some point from Leica.

 

That said reading various threads about EVIL there seems to be many people on this forum that are more against it than even a next gen Visoflex. I believe that the argumensts against are:

• Need for a CMOS sensor (CCD cannot do live View)
  
• Very poor accuracy of focussing on the LCD view screen compared to a mirror
  
• Destroys the things we all like with a M8 /M9...CCD sensor, rangefinder focussing for 16 to 135mm lenses would not be needed and therefore presumably would be removed...need for an anti aliasing filter with CMOS filter.
  
• Lack of differentiation with competing Japanese products (eg Panasonic)
  

There are probably more arguments against ...I just have the feeling that people are overall against, but if I am wrong and an EVIL accessory or complete camera does what I want ...fine

[stunsworth]

But people here are almost all enthusiastic Leica users: what research have you conducted among people who only know DSLRs?

 

This addresses the crux of the problem - and something that Frank doesn't seem to want to address. For the device to be successful it would need to attract current DSLR users. How many Canon or Nikon users are going to be interested in a camera that you need to disassemble if you want to change from using a 180mm lens to a 50mm?

 

The original Visioflex couldn't compete in a world of film SLRs, I don't believe for a second that a digital Visioflex would be able to compete in a world of digital SLRs.

[andybarton]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Many people who wax on here and critique my suggestions do not even have a digital M they shoot with their film M and use Canon or Nikon DSLR with old R glass.

 

Don't worry folks. Frank is having a go at me here for having the audacity not to use an M8 or M9, which obviously means that my opinions are worthless. I'm actually getting tired of being castigated for my choice of cameras by this man.

[mjh]

I left the discussion there believing that EVIL would emerge at some point from Leica.

And indeed it may.

 

IVery poor accuracy of focussing on the LCD view screen compared to a mirror

Accuracy isn’t an issue. You can focus an M lens on an MFT camera just fine; I’ve just tried this with an Olympus E-PL1 and it is just a bit cumbersome having to switch between normal and magnified view. But there is no issue at all with focusing accuracy; for long focal lengths the EVIL camera does even better than a rangefinder could. Now of course looking through a rangefinder and an electronic viewfinder is an entirely different experience, but that’s a different issue.

 

IDestroys the things we all like with a M8 /M9...

It wouldn’t “destroy” anything as an EVIL camera from Leica would not be marketed as a replacement for a rangefinder camera.

 

need for an anti aliasing filter with CMOS filter.

What has the decision for or against an antialiasing filter to do with the CCD-vs.-CMOS issue? You can have a CMOS sensor with or without an antialiasing filter.

 

Lack of differentiation with competing Japanese products (eg Panasonic)

I don’t think anyone else is working on a 35 mm EVIL camera right now (assuming that Leica is, which we still don’t know).

[Philippe D.]

Hallo Michael.

I don’t think anyone else is working on a 35 mm EVIL camera right now...

What about Zeiss & Sony ?

[earleygallery]

Earley Gallery, yes I did mention the Viso idea to Stefan Daniel last year where he eluded to Live View or an EVIL type solution as a technology that was potentially the future and one that could potentially, perhaps, maybe obsolete DSLR's at some point. He did recognise the need for Telephoto and Macro and did agree that this was a potential market opportunity for Leica and one that they would want to address at some point.

 

He was most likely referring to the 'Leica R solution' which they also hinted would NOT be made by Leica! Whether or not such camera ever appears remains to be seen but there are now rumours of a new Leica DSLR (made by them or rebranded we don't know).

 

Honestly, it's time to ditch your 'new Viso' idea and wait for the eventual DSLR or EVIL camera, or in the meantime buy a Canon body and an adaptor to use R lenses for macro and long telephoto work if you wish to use Leica lenses.

[Guest BigSplash]

Michael and James you both seem to like an EVIL but you see this as a complete camera solution that also covers the 16 to 135mm range where I happen to like the M.

 

James you say buy R lenses and fit it to the rumoured DSLR that will cost about £8K and the R telephoto lenses do not even have autofocus.

 

Both of you like the idea of an EVIL and if it was a cheap accessory that capitalised on my M8 shutter, sensor, SD card firmware DSP etc that I have already paid for and think is good then count me in. However the idea to buy a new camera just for telephoto and macro sounds expensive ...If it was cheap I guess that I would be interested and that is what I like about a Viso with some electronics integrated to achieve aperture priority, auto focus etc if Leica built new lenses for such a device..

 

Michael I recognise that CMOS sensors can be built with or without an anti aliasing filter. ..however I understood that to achieve an image quality similar to Leica CCD with low noise the anti aliasing filter is required. If this is wrong please let me know.

 

That said I have a view that at some point Leica will have to move to a CMOS sensor as finding a supplier of CCD seems to be difficult as the high end cameras seem to have gone towards CMOS.

[Guest BigSplash]

Don't worry folks. Frank is having a go at me here for having the audacity not to use an M8 or M9, which obviously means that my opinions are worthless. I'm actually getting tired of being castigated for my choice of cameras by this man.

 

The audacity is not that you use a Canon and I guess now a Hasselblad (Congratulations by the way..nice camera).

 

What I find tiresome is that you presume to tell me that wanting Leica to satisfy my need for Macro and Telephoto is going to cause Leica to go bankrupt, while you are supporting their competitors. You can have any opinion you want and can express it ...you certainly know a lot about Leicas. That said you and others such as Bill have not bought a digital M camera, you exclusively shoot film with your M yet you tell me that what I want is wrong and not even required.

 

Stefan Daniel seems to believe that their is a market driven need for telephoto and macro that at some point Leica wish to go after so this continued bashing that there is no market seems unjustified also.

 

You have not responded to which lenses you have in the R range.

[stunsworth]

The audacity is not that you use a Canon and I guess now a Hasselblad...

 

 

He doesn't. Attention to detail Frank, it's let you down yet again.

 

You have not responded to which lenses you have in the R range.

 

Yes he has Frank.

 

What I find tiresome is that you presume to tell me that wanting Leica to satisfy my need for Macro and Telephoto is going to cause Leica to go bankrupt

 

But who would buy it Frank? That's the question you seem unprepared to address. You say that Leica need to elbow in on the millions of Nikons and Canons sold every year, and your strategy for doing that is to introduce a revised Visioflex. Do you honestly think that such a product would compete with a Canon 5DII or a Nikon D700 in terms of sales numbers?

 

I'll ask you again, do you think that Harrod's best business strategy would be to try and take on Tesco or ASDA? If not, why not?

[andybarton]

I do not use a Canon. Never have done. Never will do.

 

The ONLY reason I bought the D700 is because Leica binned the R10, a camera I was saving up for and would have bought. This is Leica's loss, not mine, as it happens, because the D700 is an excellent camera and works beautifully with my R lenses, thanks very much.

 

I answered your question regarding the lenses back on the previous page.

 

 

I use a 28 Elmarit, a 60 Macro-Elmarit, a 90 Summicron and a 250 Telyt with my D700. I use a 35 ASPH, a 50 cron and a 90 Summarit with my Ms.

 

What I, and clearly many others find tiresome, is that just because you want a Visoflex, you think that Leica should make one. I wanted an R10, but they said that unfortunately, they could no longer make one, so I did the sensible thing and looked elsewhere for an alternative. Like normal people do. Normal people don't go banging on about resurrecting some ancient technology (even in your modern guise), when there are far, far better alternatives already on the market.

[Guest BigSplash]

This addresses the crux of the problem - and something that Frank doesn't seem to want to address. For the device to be successful it would need to attract current DSLR users. How many Canon or Nikon users are going to be interested in a camera that you need to disassemble if you want to change from using a 180mm lens to a 50mm?

 

The original Visioflex couldn't compete in a world of film SLRs, I don't believe for a second that a digital Visioflex would be able to compete in a world of digital SLRs.

Steve this is a good point and I have given this some thought.

1. The fact is that when I look at the DSLR users many buy the camera with a zoom and never ever take it off.
   
2. I watched the pros at the tennis and they seem to use the same lens throughout the match...I did not see anyone changing their lenses, although several supported two cameras with different lens fitted to each.
   
3. If you look at the Canon & Nikon lenses there is indeed a range of prime focus types but they do NOT seem to be as fast as Leica M series. There are some very expensive and exciting telephotos but the rest did not excite me at least.
   
4. How often does anyone switch from a 180mm or above to lenses in the 16mm to 90mm range? What kind of event would demand that?
   

[wizard]

Ever watch a moth fly repeatedly into a hot lightbulb?

 

YES. Seen the end, too.

 

Andy

[wattsy]

But who would buy it Frank? That's the question you seem unprepared to address.

 

Indeed. I wouldn't want one if it came free with my cornflakes let alone buy one (at Leica prices).

[stunsworth]

I watched the pros at the tennis and they seem to use the same lens throughout the match...I did not see anyone changing their lenses, although several supported two cameras with different lens fitted to each

 

That's already been answered above by someone who earns their living taking such photographs.

 

How often does anyone switch from a 180mm or above to lenses in the 16mm to 90mm range? What kind of event would demand that?

 

I was thinking of your hypothetical M user who had bought your new device and wanted to change lenses. 90mm and 180mm only have a 2x difference between them. You may as well ask how often would someone change from a 28mm to a 50mm lens. I expect it's something you've even done yourself on occasion.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[andybarton]

Indeed. I wouldn't want one if it came free with my cornflakes let alone buy one (at Leica prices).

 

Nor would any circuit pro - but we answered that about 3 pages ago.

[Guest BigSplash]

I do not use a Canon. Never have done. Never will do.

 

The ONLY reason I bought the D700 is because Leica binned the R10, a camera I was saving up for and would have bought. This is Leica's loss, not mine, as it happens, because the D700 is an excellent camera and works beautifully with my R lenses, thanks very much.

 

I answered your question regarding the lenses back on the previous page.

 

 

 

What I, and clearly many others find tiresome, is that just because you want a Visoflex, you think that Leica should make one. I wanted an R10, but they said that unfortunately, they could no longer make one, so I did the sensible thing and looked elsewhere for an alternative. Like normal people do. Normal people don't go banging on about resurrecting some ancient technology (even in your modern guise), when there are far, far better alternatives already on the market.

Andy sorry I meant Nikon ..not Canon. Also I did not see your reply on the R lenses that you own.

 

The obvious question is why did you buy the 28mm, 60mm and 90mm for the R system when this is the sweet spot for an M camera and you have a 35mm ASPH , a 50mm cron and 90mm Summarit?

 

It seems to me that you only need a reflex anything for the 250mm and I suspect that is the situation many people find themselves in ...certainly I do. If that is correct the question is how often do you use the 250mm and for what kind of photography?

 

I have a 280, 400 and 560m ...I do not use them too often and really never with film as I found it too difficult.