Making a M10 Macro & Telphoto friendly - a modern Viso or whatever

[jaapv]

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I asked Jaap not to encourage Frank... see what has lead to.... OH the pain....

I've been thinking.. The flash system of the M9 is not perfect.

1. The M-TTL preflash is not universally loved

2. There is limited functionality with third-party flashes

3. The SF24D does not tilt

4. The hot shoe is covered by the Visoflex - a real disadvantage for macro and teleflash

 

So the Splashviso should have a tilting hot shoe on top, with more universal TTL functionality integrated in the electronics. This would make the system even more attractive to DSLR users and boost the sales well over the 100.000 mark.

 

 

[swamiji]

Et Tu Brute

 

(Forgive the pooor Latin)

 

P.S. Using the Chimney and a Nikon Flash cord corrects item 4

[Guest BigSplash]

I've been thinking.. The flash system of the M9 is not perfect.

1. The M-TTL preflash is not universally loved

2. There is limited functionality with third-party flashes

3. The SF24D does not tilt

4. The hot shoe is covered by the Visoflex - a real disadvantage for macro and teleflash

 

So the Splashviso should have a tilting hot shoe on top, with more universal TTL functionality integrated in the electronics. This would make the system even more attractive to DSLR users and boost the sales well over the 100.000 mark.

 

Jaapv is this your reply to my request to identify what features it would take to grow the M10 client base and win converts to the M system? I am not sure that 100,000 sales (ie 4X) will be achievable although it represents only 0.8% market penetration .....due to a tilt flash hot shoe. sitting on top of a VisoSplash a name I rather like by the way!

[rosuna]

A 100,000 sales figure is easily achievable. It would be a huge increase in sales for Leica, but a niche camera for the industry. The requirements are a modern digital core and a more affordable price (I am not suggesting $1,000).

 

I am not saying the M10 has to replicate all the features of a reflex camera, but many features are not reflex-features, EVIL-features or rangefinder-features but simple new possibilities brought in by the digital photography. It do not contradict the essence of the rangefinder concept, but the digital technology has reduced the practical differences between types of cameras. Live view would be a very practical feature for many users in particular conditions. GPS referencing is very practical for cataloguing. Good high ISO behavior is essential for a reportage camera. Etc.

[andybarton]

I will ask again

 

Where are these 100,000 NEW rangefinder customers EVERY YEAR, going to come from? Where are the factory worker to make all these cameras going to come from? How come there aren't 100,000 orders on file today?

 

This is cloud cuckoo stuff, IMHO.

 

You are forgetting the size of the company. This is a very small company indeed, in global terms.

 

(And apologies to Rosuna )

[rosuna]

How many X1 are selling? How many V-Lux 20 are selling? Leica hasn't to produce in Germany.

 

And the new factory at Wetzlar will be ready some time... production is scalable. Do you think there exist some kind of physical law that fixes the size and market share of Leica? We are talking of Economics here, not Physics. The M9 sales figures seem to be larger than firstly expected, so the production line is adjusted to a particular number of units during a period of time. Leica may reconfigure its production for a camera with higher expectations. The only bottleneck may be in Portugal, this is, the rangefinder manufacture. Anyway, the M10 may be easier to manufacture and calibrate. Expected sales figures affects the production planning, but also the design of the product itself!

 

[andybarton]

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Demand is the limiting factor

 

Leica scale up to 100,000 units every year and have 80,000 left on the shelf. Not a great strategy.

[SJP]

Phrased differently if Leica M prices would drop by a factor four I would not buy 4x more gear, in addition the weirdo's that actually want a Leica M already have one and the price is not a major consideration in most cases (I expect). So I do not see how the market could grow by any large factor independent of what Leica develops, maybe 2x or so?

 

Contrary to popular belief on this forum Leica M's are not considered desirable by the population at large. Most people want a point&shoot that does auto everything and gives sharp pictures from 0.5-infinite, they do not want a camera that forces you to think. And they prefer buying a bigger car rather than spending a whole pile of cash on something the neighbors would not understand.

 

Finally a Leica M does not give you any street-credibility as a photographer as it is not the size of an anti-tank launcher. SIze matters.

[pgk]

Finally a Leica M does not give you any street-credibility as a photographer as it is not the size of an anti-tank launcher. SIze matters.

I had a client (no photographic knowledge whatsoever) query why I was using a 'small' camera. After I had explained that it was 'small, but was German built (ie quality and cost - which still does have considerable credibility) and told him the price, all was well (he was happy with the pix as well)! Size matters but in today's world, price matters too:D! Cheapening Leica's may not be such a good thing were it ever to happen......

[rosuna]

I will ask again

 

Where are these 100,000 NEW rangefinder customers EVERY YEAR, going to come from?

 

... with the M9 camera, it is very difficult to sustain even 25,000 cameras sold the second year. The camera needs a rethinking and a repositioning in the market.

[rosuna]

I will ask again

 

Where are these 100,000 NEW rangefinder customers EVERY YEAR, going to come from?

 

... with the M9 camera, it is very difficult to sustain even 25,000 cameras sold the second year. The camera needs a rethinking and a repositioning in the market. My feeling is that there is many potential customers of the M system, but due to different reasons, they don't buy: the price is too high (it is a price of a pro, state-of-the-art equipment, but it isn't), the camera is too limited (performance, features... things you cannot do with it, without any reason), Leica M cameras are getting a reputation of unreliable... When you consider the M system carefully, you like it, you want it, but you don't buy it. Leica has to change that, reducing the accessing barriers as much as possible. A new FF EVIL camera may be a good idea, but the M system itself has a lot of potential.

[redbaron]

SJP, Leica don't care what the ignorant masses want. They make cameras for pros and serious amateurs.

 

Size only matters to those with other issues.

[pgk]

it is a price of a pro, state-of-the-art equipment, but it isn't

Ummm. How do you figure this. I'm a pro, I use Canon dSLRs and Leica M8s - in the future certainly at some point an M9. For me 'state-of-the-art' is a very loose term. For (35mm) dSLRs I can accept that it means something akin to the D3 or 1D or DS series (or 5D2 or perhaps others) but in RF terms it means an M8/9 - unless of course there is an RF camera out there that I'm unaware of:eek:.

 

My personal view is that tinkering with the tried and tested RF design on such a niche product is more likely to dilute its appeal than increase it. Live view, etc., is great on some cameras but IMHO is like this preposterous idea of a revised Visoflex, its not a relevant feature for an RF camera - that said I can see its uses for say, micro adjusting a lens and it focus, etc., more of a technician's tool really, but not for actual use.

[marknorton]

Whatever you think of Frank's ideas, you have to admit his typing and even his spelling are improving. Heaven knows he's getting enough practice.

[stunsworth]

Whatever you think of Frank's ideas, you have to admit his typing and even his spelling are improving. Heaven knows he's getting enough practice.

 

Yes, but it still looks like a bullet pointed handout accompanying a Powerpoint presentation.

 

The essential problem problem I have with taking Frank's proposal seriously is that I can't see how an updated version of a device that didn't sell well for decades will sell by the tens of thousand in a world where SLRs are much more sophisticated than they were back then.

[SJP]

SJP, Leica don't care what the ignorant masses want. They make cameras for pros and serious amateurs.

 

Size only matters to those with other issues.

Indeed, i.e. a small target group as we all seem to agree on. Note posting by pgk of clients not taking Leica M's seriously. Personally I find the big DSLR's with 15-600 mm zooms etc. somewhat offensive (especially at weddings etc. fine for nature photography).

[jaapv]

Jaapv is this your reply to my request to identify what features it would take to grow the M10 client base and win converts to the M system? I am not sure that 100,000 sales (ie 4X) will be achievable although it represents only 0.8% market penetration .....due to a tilt flash hot shoe. sitting on top of a VisoSplash a name I rather like by the way!

I'm sure you missed a smiley....

[swamiji]

I'm sure you missed a smiley....

 

You had it coming...

[jaapv]

:D

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest BigSplash]

Yesterday I attended a Leica get together here in the South of France albeit with some intrepidation given the critique I have endured here. I was pleasantly surprised there was objectivity in the air, and a meeting of like minds. Let me share some of the feedback:

1. A professional photographer that has historically used mainly Nikons and earns his money with mainly architectural work since 30 years, although more recently he has started doing some landscape work. He is thinking of moving to a Leica M digital. I asked him if he has a tilt shift - lens...he DOES but never uses it. He said that he would use a full format or medium format if he really needed such a thing, and then laughed that in all honesty he uses Photoshop to do linear corrections if it is needed. Apparently CS5 has an upgraded ruler feature which is even better than CS4. Leica lenses work just fine therefore and if they dont it is easy to correct in post production....so that was one bogey slain!
   
2. I asked about the 18mm to 200mm and suggested that this was a fast lens and good enough etc etc. as this is what was said on this thread. I was told that the speed is a function of the selected focal length and at 200mm it is 5.6 or worse so there is a need to use high ISO numbers, with the negtives implied by that. ..so that was a second bogey slain! Also the comment was made that these large lenses are heavy and bulky and that is why the pro wanted to move from Nikon towards Leica
   
3. I raised the next gen Visoflex idea (VisoSplash) and there was real buy in to such a concept. I was asked why do people on this forum not see the need for such a device and people did not know? The feedback was very positive about the VisoSplash and differentiated the Leica M from anything available currently.
   
4. There was not much enthusiasm for EVIL except for cheaper cameras, but it was mentioned as a possible technology for the future as the capabilities develop
   
5. There was concern raised in various ways about Leica's ability to remain in business if they do not widen the appeal of the M product and fix problems that are obvious to any businessman, but are excused here. Specifics mentioned were:
   1. 
      
   2. After sales support ...that takes several months not days or hours. Many examples were quoted...and there was real annoyance about this
      
   3. Poor reliability of the M8, M9 and lens setup fresh out of the box...again many examples were quoted.
      
   4. Ability for Leica to make money with their level of rework, warranty, handbuilt low output and a camera price of £5000 each or £18K for the S2 with only two S2 lenses in the portfolio so far.
      
   5. Appeal of a format between 35mm and Medium format, when many pros have large investments in Hasselblad, Phase One, and Mamiya etc already
      
   6. Firmware fixes remain on M8 and M9 has its own flaws also that should never have been allowed out of R&D.
      
   7. Unbelievable that the M8 and M9 does not have a flash synch socket on a £5000 camera that is supposed to appeal to a serious amateur or pro. It was suggested that this was indicative of a company that does not listen to the needs of its clients
      

I share these thoughts here as hopefully it will help encourage people to think in a more open manner. I have tried to capture honestly the flavour and comments as accurately as possible...I make no comment here about if the feedback is correct critique or not.