Making a M10 Macro & Telphoto friendly - a modern Viso or whatever

[andybarton]

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Now let me attack those that say that I should use Leica M for 21 to 90mm range and buy a new camera system DSLR for macro and Telephoto.......WHY!!?

 

Because it's all about using the right tool for the right job. You must be extremely dense if you can't see this, Frank, honestly. EVERYONE else can see this apart for you - open your eyes.

 

Let's say that you own a car. Let's say it's a Morgan. It's great for certain things. Like driving through the English countryside with the hood down and you in a tweed cap and string backed gloves, believing that you lord it over everyone else.

 

Then, one day, you think "I'd like to drive my car up a mountain. I know, I will post on a Morgan forum that Mr Morgan (his name escapes me for now) should make my Morgan capable of driving up a mountain and through a river. He should make my Morgan 4-wheel drive, and should give it a ground clearance of 14 inches, and make the suspension suitable for mountain passes"

 

"WAIT!", says the purist. "Morgans aren't 4x4s. They are (ahem...) sports cars, suitable for road use only"

 

"No", says you,"I have an old Morgan, and I want to drive up a mountain with it"

 

Can you see where I am going with this, Frank...?

 

Buy a Morgan for lording it over all and sundry.

 

Buy a Mercedes S-Class for driving across Europe at speed and in comfort

 

Buy a Land Rover for driving up a mountain.

 

Oh, I give up. No amount of reasoned argument will ever convince you that Leica shouldn't build a Visoflex to satisfy your own peculiar desires. Let's all petition Dr Kaufmann to build one for you so that you are satisfied. Never mind that the whole company will go bankrupt in the process because they will have sold exactly one Visoflex. To you

 

Would you be satisfied then?

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[bill]

OK well I have a basic prototype...

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...If Carlsberg made Visoflexes...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[jaapv]

Jaapv why do you not answer the question I posed.......WHAT PRECISELY IS IT THAT A NEXT GEN VISO CANNOT DO COMAPRED TO A DMR OR DSLR?

Take photographs. It needs a graft for that.... I prefer a camera to an incomplete contraption.

[jaapv]

the lens that is intelligent.

At last! I find something that is....

[redbaron]

I think it's time for a car analogy, Frank, since you ignored my post on the tennis thread. Trying to put a viso on an M10, which is years off, would be like trying to fit a V8 engine into a Subaru Forester. Sure the engineers could probably do it, but Subaru owners don't want V8s, it would drive like a wet sponge and drink like a fish.

 

If you think it's such a good idea why don't you either make it yourself or get on your hotline to Leica and ask them?

 

An M is an M is an M.

[dpattinson]

Where have you heard that rumour about a dSLR from Leica?

 

Read my response to your thread about why you think pro sports photographers should shoot Leicas (presumably with Visos) for my reasons why I don't think Leica will or can even afford to build a new SLR. £18 grand for a body? Are you mad?

 

I've heard that DSLR rumour too; full-frame, autofocus, with a new set of lenses, will mount R lenses with an adapter. Was from a rep, not a dealer. Very much doubt it would be £18k

[Guest BigSplash]

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Because if you want to bang in nails you buy a hammer, if you're using screws you buy a screwdriver. Yes, you can use a hammer to bang in screws, but a screwdriver is a more appropriate tool, and it does the job far better with a lot less mess......

.

 

A good analogy Steve.

So I can assume that the screwdriver cannot be replaced by a power drill that we now call a power screwdriver! Further I can assume the normal straight screwhead will not become a pozi drive or philips or Torx type. The screw of old will not move to the high tech variant of today that has different thread types along the length of the screw. Of course not the fact is technology advances change the game dramatically.

 

Can I also assume that electric or pneumatic nailers will not ever happen, as the manual hammer will remain unchanged. Again technology has changed the ways things are done

 

I joined the SC industry in 1978 when CMOS was just starting to happen and small scale integration, geometries above 10 to 15 micron, with yields of 40% in Bipolar and NMOS technologies was what was being produced. The Visoflex had already been introduced a decade earlier.

 

Today geometries are sub micron, mega integration of very low power CMOS is the norm and devices include: DSP, ASIC (Gate arrays, Cell arrays), sensors of all types, LCD and OLED polymer displays, embedded firmware etc etc NONE of which was available in 1978!

 

Many of these new technologies could make a valuable contribution within a next gen Visoflex, which had no electronics and was a simple mirror box. I am surprised that people really do not see that. I also believe that DSLR cameras have evolved and ideas to miniaturise the mirror housing, and dampen the noise could also be used within a new generation Viso.

 

I do not see why people do not accept that a combination of electronics, latest DSLR mirror technology and some decisions with respect to M10 architecture (the camera contacts) could not yield what I am suggesting.

 

People try to suggest that a Viso on a M10 would be cumbersome to a DSLR wiith a 18 to 90 mm lens on it . I agree and have never suggested using a Viso in this range, where a M8/9 is already a DSLR killer.

 

People here have said that there is no market and it would ruin the M business. I have done some research and the facts are:

• Annual production w/wide of all cameras is 140MUnits
  
• High End DSLR system cameras...annually is 11.2MUnits w/wide
  
• Leica is about 25KUnits or 0.2% of the high end DSLR market.
  

1. Can anyone explain how introducing a modern Viso would ruin Leica's ability to capture its 0.2% market share?
   
2. I would also like to know why the introduction of a capability to do things that only a DSLR can do today would be detrimental to Leica in anyway?
   
3. Surely it would give Leica a chance to penetrate ever so slightly the 11.2MUnits market...another 0.2%
   
4. Surely any success for a next gen vison would give Leica an ability to sell some next generation telephoto lenses where the R designs already exist within Leica R&D and can be adapted / reintroduced to fit a Viso with the contacts etc in the correct place.
   

Steve I accept that it maybe impossible to use recent R lenses and enjoy aperture control etc on a modified Viso..I was thinking of the old Telyt lenses in fact.

 

Andy suggests that my suggestion would be another S2 mistake.....Well I would counter that the investment for the development of a complete new camera system, with complete new lenses is significantly higher than what I propose here and Leica could do it by borrowing from existing designs. I also think the S2 has not yet had a chance as the full set of lenses is not yet even available.

 

Finally there is nothing wrong with taking a product (like a M10) and adding things to it (like a high tech Viso) to enter new markets. There are many success stories that revolutionised the way things are done and have allowed successful products to eneter new markets:

• Tractors have had pneumatic kit added to them. The first to do it was JCB that have a rather nice digger business worldwide as a result.
  
• Many electric drills today have a small pneumatic hammer action built in and these easily go through solid concrete, and can push steel fastners into the hole.
  
• The iPhone has 2000+ applications available that convert the thing into a music box, a compass etc etc.
  
• A basic positioning device (GPS) has already evolved into new business areas: It provides the clock in my car. It drives AIS transponder units. It tags firemen in terms of location and height within a building. It communicates the location of London buses to the center and bus stop. It tracks containers and railway rolling stock.
  

My message is stop thinking of the old Viso as belonging to the era of the slide rule (which it did) and think what could happen if modern electronics is applied to it.

[andybarton]

But it's unnecessary. That's the point. There are better ways of doing things in the 21C

 

I assume that you would prefer Leica to divert their precious R&D euros to this, rather than lens or body development. I wouldn't and neither would most users who are much more open minded than you

[Guest BigSplash]

Please see my comments

I think it's time for a car analogy, Frank, since you ignored my post on the tennis thread. Sorry ..I'll relook. Trying to put a viso on an M10, which is years off, would be like trying to fit a V8 engine into a Subaru Forester. Sure the engineers could probably do it, but Subaru owners don't want V8s, it would drive like a wet sponge and drink like a fish.

If it is years off before we get a M10 that would give Leica time to comprehend what I am suggesting within the M10 and indeed within the lenses. I am told that optical glass as used for lenses takes 18 months to cool from its liquid state ...so even if the designs exit already production is some time off.

 

If you think it's such a good idea why don't you either make it yourself or get on your hotline to Leica and ask them? I have answered the first several times in this thread. I shall be talking to Leica management but first I wish to see the snags some of which people have identified in this thread (eg R lens mechanical linkages)

 

An M is an M is an M.Totally agree and it is a DSLR killer in the 18 to 90mm lens niche....did I not say that? did I suggest any changes to the M concept? [/quote]

[redbaron]

Frank, have you read the rumours about Leica's new SLR? If they are true, and it's a mighty big if, it would rule out Leica re-making the viso? Wouldn't it?

[stunsworth]

A good analogy Steve.

So I can assume that the screwdriver cannot be replaced by a power drill that we now call a power screwdriver!

 

It's never too wise to push an analogy too far, but in this case I have to thank you for making my point for me.

 

When designing the power screwdriver the manufacturer's didn't attempt to create a device that could be used with existing screwdrivers, they designed the unit from scratch with the power supply and motor built into the handle, because that was the best design they could think of with the fewest compromises.

 

Now I'm sure there were some bright sparks who said "Hold on, the buyer will already own the screwdrivers, rather than force him to buy a new one we'll create a device that will allow him to use what he's already bought". So perhaps they would have come up with a rotating device that the screwdriver handle could fit into - rather like a drill bit fits into a chuck. "It's not as elegant" they would say, "but it protects your existing investment in screwdrivers".

 

The problem is of course that no one (or rather only a handful of people) would buy it. They'd prefer the more elegant solution that was designed from the bottom up to solve the problem, rather than the bodge I've described. And so it is with your Visio. It might work, but who would buy it? Most people prefer the more elegant solution.

 

The M8/9 _isn't_ a "DSLR" killer. This is part of your problem. Most people want to use a DSLR. Even if there was an entry level M most people would prefer to buy the SLR. Times have moved on. The rangefinder is a niche product and will remain so, not because it's a poor system, but because it's not what most people want.

 

By the way, although the iPhone has more that 2000 apps, it's nearer 200,000. See here...

 

App Store - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Once again I think you just plucked a figure out of the air and ran with it.

[giordano]

Let's look at this another way.

 

It was the market, not technical difficulty, that stopped Leica making a digital R10 using most of the R8/9 components but with the film gate replaced by a full-frame sensor and the digital circuitry integrated into the body. They reckoned that despite the existence of a good range of excellent lenses it wouldn't appeal beyond dwindling bands of fanboys and diehards.

 

Frank's idea for an all-singing, all-dancing Visoflex would IMHO cost more to develop - the reflex housing itself, a new line of lenses (even if they're existing optics in newly-designed mounts), the adaptation to the "M10" lens mount and electronics to communicate with the reflex housing.

 

It would certainly find an even smaller market - consisting of people with more money than sense, and people who will do anything to avoid using DSLRs.

[Guest BigSplash]

But it's unnecessary. That's the point. There are better ways of doing things in the 21C

 

I assume that you would prefer Leica to divert their precious R&D euros to this, rather than lens or body development. I wouldn't and neither would most users who are much more open minded than you

 

Andy you do not make any sense at all. Am I not suggesting that Leica should develop new lenses and an M body? Isn't that what this debate is about?

• I am NOT sure we need yet another 18, 21, 24, 28, 50, 75, 90 or 135mm I would agree that a TriElmar 28/35/50 is a need for the Leica line up.
  
• I am suggesting a 200, 280, 400, 560, 800 mm series of lenses and a telephoto zoom.
  
• I am also suggesting a macro orientated lens......
  
• I am suggesting a M10 body that addresses the various issues written about elsewhere that need fixing. The M mount should be backward compatible to old M lenses while allowing connections through a Viso (or indeed without a Viso) to contacts on a new generation of lenses.
  

At some point Leica could then announce the next gen Viso and overnight extend the usefulness of the M as a full system camera that allows telephoto and macro while retaining the basic properties of a M.

 

This could be a 21st Century offering that offers a real alternative to a DSLR.

 

Andy I am intrigued what R lenses do you actually have that you use on a Nikon. ...are there any between 15mm and 90mm ? Why not use your M?

..are there any significantly above 90mm? ....Would a next gen Viso on a M be unwieldly compared to a DSLR...I think not.

[stunsworth]

AAm I not suggesting that Leica should develop new lenses and an M body?

 

You are suggesting that Leica develop a new Visioflex _and_ new lenses since there is nothing in their current range of lenses that could be used on such a device.

 

As for why Andy uses his DSLR in preference to his Ms, and which focal lengths he uses, I can guess his answer, but I'm sure he'll be along to tell you himself.

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank, have you read the rumours about Leica's new SLR? If they are true, and it's a mighty big if, it would rule out Leica re-making the viso? Wouldn't it?

 

That was also my original reaction and I said so in this thread. However the rumour also states that the price will be between the M9 (£5K) and the S2 (£18K)....Let me guess £8K!

 

My comment would be why would I not use a M10 (£5K) and its lenses in the 18mm to 90mm range.....I get an easy to handle, small size camera that has a theoretically better focussing accuracy in this range than any DSLR. A quieter shutter in my expereince although mirror noise has been improved apparently in latest DSLR's. It is the case that M lenses were always somewhat cheaper than R lenses.

 

A next gen viso with integrated electronics (and a M10 to suit ) seems to me could be built at a COST that is much lower than a new DSLR camera. since the DSLR has a shutter, sensor etc etc....

 

RedBaron I think there is a real place for such a thing, and I actually think it would change how we look at high end photography. I guess pros could carry two M10's a Viso and primes that go from 21mm thru to 560mm and have a smaller bag than suggested by two DSLR's and the bigger DSLR lenses for the full range.

[Guest BigSplash]

You are suggesting that Leica develop a new Visioflex _and_ new lenses since there is nothing in their current range of lenses that could be used on such a device.

.

Yes I am suggesting new lenses, M10 body and a new gen Viso . Andy was making the point that Leica should invest their R&D in new lenses and evolution of the M body....that is what I am suggesting!

 

If you look at the current line up of lenses for a Leica M it is really already very impressive in the range 16 to 135mm ...I really question what is missing? Do you see a burning need or gap for something beyond the MATE. ? There are a few I want and shall get but I am more interested in extending the range of my photography.

[Guest BigSplash]

Let's look at this another way.

 

It was the market, not technical difficulty, that stopped Leica making a digital R10 using most of the R8/9 components but with the film gate replaced by a full-frame sensor and the digital circuitry integrated into the body. They reckoned that despite the existence of a good range of excellent lenses it wouldn't appeal beyond dwindling bands of fanboys and diehards.

 

So that means that Leica should NOT bring out a S2 junior or the newly rumoured reflex camera, with a full range of new lenses. This camera is priced according to the rumour between M9 and S2.

 

Leica should stay as a niche product for the fanboys and diehards making 25KU per year and not going after the 11.2MUnits of high end DSLR system cameras.

 

Without a true system offering how do they grow the volumes which is a need to attract better supplier pricing and drive down costs?

 

Today Leica seems to be making profits (3 qtr results and likely 4qtr) due I suppose to M9 success and the new lenses. What happens when the fanboys and diehards have their M9...will profits continue to be great and will the company grow from its current base.

I know several people that have the M9 and they love it but they say that they will NOT buy a M10 unless it offers something startling special (see jaapv comment for example). I think that they are sensible.

Many people who wax on here and critique my suggestions do not even have a digital M they shoot with their film M and use Canon or Nikon DSLR with old R glass.

 

If we are talking Marketing and you raise the point I think a M10 must offer something more than the M9 or a DSLR and my suggestion certainly offers that. The question is what else can Leica do to preserve the M digital line up? I am very keen to learn?

[Guest BigSplash]

It's never too wise to push an analogy too far, but in this case I have to thank you for making my point for me.

 

When designing the power screwdriver the manufacturer's didn't attempt to create a device that could be used with existing screwdrivers, they designed the unit from scratch with the power supply and motor built into the handle, because that was the best design they could think of with the fewest compromises.

 

Now I'm sure there were some bright sparks who said "Hold on, the buyer will already own the screwdrivers, rather than force him to buy a new one we'll create a device that will allow him to use what he's already bought". So perhaps they would have come up with a rotating device that the screwdriver handle could fit into - rather like a drill bit fits into a chuck. "It's not as elegant" they would say, "but it protects your existing investment in screwdrivers".

 

The problem is of course that no one (or rather only a handful of people) would buy it. They'd prefer the more elegant solution that was designed from the bottom up to solve the problem, rather than the bodge I've described. And so it is with your Visio. It might work, but who would buy it? Most people prefer the more elegant solution.

 

The M8/9 _isn't_ a "DSLR" killer. This is part of your problem. Most people want to use a DSLR. Even if there was an entry level M most people would prefer to buy the SLR. Times have moved on. The rangefinder is a niche product and will remain so, not because it's a poor system, but because it's not what most people want.

 

By the way, although the iPhone has more that 2000 apps, it's nearer 200,000. See here...

 

App Store - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Once again I think you just plucked a figure out of the air and ran with it.

 

Steve ...look at the FESTOOL drill ....This is a beautiful unit that started life as a cordless drill, it now is a screwdriver and comes with an accessory box with a huge range of drills, screw bits, allen bits etc etc the point is a basic tool that elegantly does much more.

 

Surely the iPhone having more than 2000 apps and you say 200,000 just confirms my point.

 

You did not mention JCB example

 

There are other examples of a basic unit allowing the user to do more than the original concept was designed for by use of accessories. Kenwood make their "Chef" product and besides stirring cake mixtures they offer a range of accessories at prices that suggest they enjoy profits on each.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stunsworth]

Leica should stay as a niche product for the fanboys and diehards making 25KU per year and not going after the 11.2MUnits of high end DSLR system cameras.

 

Presumably you'd also like to see Morgan go after Ford, and Harrods take on Tesco.

[andybarton]

I was NOT suggesting Leica spend R&D €€s on lenses for a Visoflex. Let's just make that absolutely clear.

 

I use a 28 Elmarit, a 60 Macro-Elmarit, a 90 Summicron and a 250 Telyt with my D700. I use a 35 ASPH, a 50 cron and a 90 Summarit with my Ms

 

And I have no idea why Frank can't understand what I was meaning in my last post. I am somewhat indisposed today so can't re-read what I said.