RIP and Toning Question

[johnwolf]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Would those of you who use RIP printing answer a basic question about RIP functionality and toning BW images?

 

Does RIP work like Epson Advanced B&W, where you must tone using the printer driver? Or, if you tone or split-tone in Lightroom or Silver Efex, can you then output the toned image using RIP?

 

I often lightly tone and split-tone because I like warm whites, but my understanding is that the point of RIP software is to produce a neutral BW print.

 

Appreciate the help.

 

John

[wparsonsgisnet]

John, if you go to inkjetmall.com you will see that they have different b/w ink sets, including selenium, neutral, warm, and sepia.

 

Here is the link for the different tones:

 

PeizoTone hue chart

 

I use the neutral set in an Epson 1400 printer and the prints on Hahnemuhle matte are really striking.

[Jamie Roberts]

Would those of you who use RIP printing answer a basic question about RIP functionality and toning BW images?

 

Does RIP work like Epson Advanced B&W, where you must tone using the printer driver? Or, if you tone or split-tone in Lightroom or Silver Efex, can you then output the toned image using RIP?

 

I often lightly tone and split-tone because I like warm whites, but my understanding is that the point of RIP software is to produce a neutral BW print.

 

Appreciate the help.

 

John

 

Most RIPs include the ability to tone with a standard Epson ink-set.

 

For example, though the point of ImagePrint is to create a neutral BW, it certainly has a very nice monochromatic toning mechanism built right in.

 

Split tones (a single tone for highlights and a different one for shadows) can also be created directly in the ImagePrint interface. So you're still using the monochrome workflow with a standard ink set.

 

However, if you want strong duo-or quad tone colours with high saturation (so less toning and more of a colour effect), in my experience you're better off doing this in photoshop or Lightroom and passing it through a RIP in colour mode.

 

Make sense? You don't normally need to buy special inksets, though as Bill points out they certainly exist.

[johnwolf]

Thanks, Bill and Jamie. Jamie, I think your last point gets to what I'm asking.

 

I called the ImagePrint folks, who say their product will print a BW toned file in color mode, but the results will likely not be as good as using their grayscale profiles. Color output, they say, maybe show metamerism, especially in fluorescent lighting.

 

I'd prefer toning and split-toning in LR and Silver Efex, rather than tone with the RIP or with special inks. I like saving the files with the toning, and also approximately matching web versions and prints. But maybe that's a workflow bias I should revisit.

 

John

[Jeff S]

There are also archival issues related to using color versus dedicated black ink sets as Bill uses. This may or may not be an important consideration for you.

 

Jeff

[Jamie Roberts]

There are also archival issues related to using color versus dedicated black ink sets as Bill uses. This may or may not be an important consideration for you.

 

Jeff

 

Perhaps. Pigment inks are generally estimated (because no-one really knows yet) as fairly good for archival stability; on the right paper and under the right conditions.

 

As for metamerism, I honestly haven't seen very much of that on any colour shot, including toned shots, with the latest inksets.

 

However, for me, toning in the RIP as an output option is also more attractive; I store neutral reference images (or even RAW files) so I can print them any way I like down the road. It's all a balance, of course.

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Perhaps. Pigment inks are generally estimated (because no-one really knows yet) as fairly good for archival stability; on the right paper and under the right conditions.

 

 

I'm clearly not the expert on this, but if you're not familiar with the Cone carbon inks that Bill references, the following link provides some of their rationale as well as information on their participation in some longevity research...What is Piezography?

 

As they describe the Epson printers and inks, even printing b/w in the advanced mode involves some degree of color "toning."

 

As you say, time will tell, but their reasoning seems logical...to me, anyway.

 

Jeff

[pop]

Pigment inks are generally estimated (because no-one really knows yet) as fairly good for archival stability

 

Even though no one knows as yet, "they" have a pretty good idea about the persistence and durability of those materiels.

 

For one, there are labs which measure the changes in materials over time under varying environmental conditions (UV, fumes and others). Then, there are methods which use those measures for prognoses.

 

It is certainly the nature of a surprise that it comes unexpected. However, some of the forecasts for the longevity of materials seem pretty well founded.

[wparsonsgisnet]

Even if we don't have actual lives to calculate (probably, not any of us, after all...), we have relative lives from the test results. That is, the ink/paper combos can be rated for actual fading or color change.

 

The carbon inks from Cone have the "longest" lives.

 

In comparison -- the current inks from Epson are supposed to fade by about 30% over time. I have several Epson color prints on Ilford Glossy hanging in my cubby. The oldest of these is about 4 years old. I don't notice a change in the colors, but don't have a properly archived comparison print of course.

 

So,

1. I don't notice any change over 4 years in a color print using the Epson inks -- that is NOT displayed in a protected way.

2. I also have b/w prints with the Cone inks on the Hahnemuhle photo rag displayed alongside. No discernible change, either.

3. The Epson inks, on the Ilford glossy, are rated at 45-50 years, I believe. Not a bad bet as neither the photog nor the customer will care when that deadline arrives, if they do indeed last that long.

4. The Cone inks on the Hahne... are rated for 200+ years (with "no" fading, as opposed to an unnoticeable 30% fade).

 

Knock yourself out.

 

Of course, this is off topic for the poster's original question.

[Jamie Roberts]

Bill, and everyone,

 

I chose my words carefully I said estimated life span; I'm well aware of the research, ratings, and controveries.

 

FWIW, (and probably not much really), dark box storage (read albums) for Epson Ultrachrome inks on Epson paper is currently rated by Wilhelm at 200 years plus.

 

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/ESP3880.html

 

Personally, for presentation printing and archival light-fastness I'll take a coated Lambda print under UV glass every time But I wouldn't buy into the Cone stuff for archival purposes. Maybe for tonality, but not storage.

[wparsonsgisnet]

... FWIW, (and probably not much really), dark box storage (read albums) for Epson Ultrachrome inks on Epson paper is currently rated by Wilhelm at 200 years plus...

 

The FWIW part is that the 200-plus year rating includes a 30% fade factor that is "unnoticeable." These inks are NOT archival in the same sense that Cone's carbon pigment inks are.

 

Wilhem needs to stay in business, so he has to live with what he has to test.

[Jamie Roberts]

The FWIW part is that the 200-plus year rating includes a 30% fade factor that is "unnoticeable." These inks are NOT archival in the same sense that Cone's carbon pigment inks are.

 

Wilhem needs to stay in business, so he has to live with what he has to test.

 

Hey Bill... I "get" it, I just don't necessarily buy it I know people think Wilhelm is tainted by Epson's money. Who has independently tested Cone's stuff again? Again, FWIW, it wouldn't surprise me that a straight monochromatic inkset is more inherently more stable than any colour inkset, but still, when we';re talking 2 or 3 centuries of stability against a minute or unpredictable fade factor, we're talking a massive interpolation of data based on "accelerated" testing.

 

(anyway, sorry for the thread hijack)...

[wparsonsgisnet]

... I know people think Wilhelm is tainted by Epson's money. Who has independently tested Cone's stuff again? ......

 

I don't assert that Wilhelm is tainted. Perhaps realistic is a good word. If we can't see fading, and I don't without a comparison, so much the better. I also don't see a color change.

 

Dunno about the testing. But, I believe carbon pigments have shown themselves to be stable over several centuries of painting.

 

As you suggest, it doesn't really matter. Different strokes, or courses, or ....

 

The info about printing in different shades of b/w is ok, too.