Your Rights to Lightroom 3 as a Leica M9 Buyer

[sanyasi]

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The question of whether a buyer of an M9 can obtain Lightroom 3 for free by waiting to use the coupon that comes with the M9 has come up in various threads--hence this separate post. Wanting to get to the bottom of this, I called Adobe. I went to a second level call ("Can I speak to your manager"). I was told the coupon is only good for Lightroom 2, and those wanting Lightroom 3 will have to use the coupon to get Lightroom 2 and then follow the normal upgrade path. Whether that is in fact the case, I don't know so don't change your position based on my conversation. Even at the second level, I am not sure the person really understood the question and I don't think they had ever heard of Leica.

 

However, the answer I received is consistent with what I assume will be the case. Given the continuing uncertainty, I posted the following to the Lightroom 3 Beta forum:

 

 

I have tried calling Adobe about licensing, but finding an entry point into Adobe is proving impossible. Here is my question. Buyers of the M9 Leica camera receive a coupon in the box that entitles them to a version of Adobe Lightroom 2 for free. There is a download process.

 

Many recent buyers of the camera are deferring the download, waiting for Lightroom 3 to become fully available. Their assumption is that the coupon is good for the latest release when they finally get around to downloading Lightroom rather than a specific numbered major release (LR 2 in this case). I would like to know the legal rights that are conferred by the coupon. Is the coupon limited to Lightroom 2, or instead to whatever the major release number is at the time that the coupon is used?

 

I would appreciate an answer from someone at Adobe who knows the licensing terms. I am not interest in opinions or the equity of the matter, just the legal rights.

 

Thank you.

 

Jack Siegel

 

So we will see if someone from Adobe with more definitive knowledge responds. There is an answer to this question. Since Leica negotiated the deal, they should know the answer. If they are reading this forum, they should advise their customers what their legal rights are.

 

Jack Siegel

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[jonoslack]

Surely this is quite clear

Software houses supply versions of software to OEM's to 'give away' with goods, at excellent prices with the obvious intention that users will then pay upgrade prices later on.

 

The difference with the M9 was that they are actually giving away the 'current' version (usually it's a previous one).

 

It's quite certain that if you got a license for LR2 with your M9 you will not get a free upgrade to LR3 - these are not charity organisations!

 

Perhaps later M9's will be sold with an LR3 license, but that is a different matter.

 

I'm not being cynical, just realistic (and fair as well I think - I see no reason why it should be the case)

[Audiocide]

I'm interested as well. I've grown really fond of Lightroom. Faster for browsing DNGs than Bridge, and faster to process images (that don't need extensive post) than Photoshop.

[andybarton]

You should be asking Leica, not Adobe. Leica are offering you the Serial Number, not Adobe. You have no contract with Adobe, except as a third party through Leica.

[Audiocide]

these are not charity organisations!

 

I actually laughed out loud at that.

 

I'm not being cynical, just realistic (and fair as well I think - I see no reason why it should be the case)

 

As a student of Econonomics, I see nothing cynical about saying everyone's looking to make a buck. That's just the way it is.

[sanyasi]

Surely this is quite clear

Software houses supply versions of software to OEM's to 'give away' with goods, at excellent prices with the obvious intention that users will then pay upgrade prices later on.

 

The difference with the M9 was that they are actually giving away the 'current' version (usually it's a previous one).

 

It's quite certain that if you got a license for LR2 with your M9 you will not get a free upgrade to LR3 - these are not charity organisations!

 

Perhaps later M9's will be sold with an LR3 license, but that is a different matter.

 

I'm not being cynical, just realistic (and fair as well I think - I see no reason why it should be the case)

 

I couldn't agree more with you, which is why I have consistently said my expectations is that you only get LR2--I have been using LR since version 1 and already had 2 before I purchased the camera. I have and continue to fully expect to have pay an upgrade fee for LR3. For my money, Leica should lower the price of the camera $100 or whatever and let me decide on the software I want to use.

 

I just wanted to get to the bottom of this because the issue keeps coming up in the forum.

[sanyasi]

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You should be asking Leica, not Adobe. Leica are offering you the Serial Number, not Adobe. You have no contract with Adobe, except as a third party through Leica.

 

It takes two to contract so either Leica or Adobe should be able to answer the question. As I said, I haven't gone through the process of downloading yet and haven't really cared, but this seems to plague a lot of people so I thought I would investigate.

 

After reading the booklet from Leica, I tend to agree with you. It appears that the download takes place off of Leica's website and not through a link to the Adobe website. I would be curious if anyone has downloaded the software yet and whether it is Leica that actually has the download on its site. If so, I would be even more surprised if people who held off on the download until LR 3 was released would get a free copy of LR3.

[Rolo]

Will Adobe supply Lightroom 2 beyond the introduction of version 3 ? I wanted to re-install my Photoshop CS3 and discovered that Adobe don't even have it available on their site for eisting users.

 

Can't imagine that LR2 is sustainable in the medium term, so presumeably Leica will need to change their offer at some point.

 

As I purchased LR2 and have a ticket for LR2 with my M9, that I haven't acquired yet, I'll probably sell myLeica version (if it's hard copy) and use the proceeds for the Upgrade to version 3.

 

Can someone please confirm if the Leica offer includes CD's, or is it download only ?

[andybarton]

Rolo

 

There is no "Leica version"

 

You just download the normal version from the Adobe website and use the SN that Leica give you once you have registered the camera.

 

The only think that you have to sell is the SN and that can only be used once, of course.

[sanyasi]

I have submitted an e-mail request to Leica asking for a definitive resolution to this issue.

[Shootist]

This is consistent with all other software. It was the same for Phase One's Capture 1 software that came with the M8. You got version 4 and all the updates for version 4 and then when they came out with version 5 M8 owners had to purchase it.

 

I don't see why it would be any different with Adobe.

 

Hey I've bought PS CS2 as a upgrade from PS version 6 then CS3 and CS4 as upgrades. Shouldn't I be entitled to a free upgrade to CS5? NO.

 

Now Leica may strike another deal with Adobe to allow NEW purchasers of M9's to LR3 and that may carry over to original buyers.

[yanidel]

As a student of Econonomics, I see nothing cynical about saying everyone's looking to make a buck. That's just the way it is.

I guess some of you guys like me already owned LR previous to acquiring the M9. So we paid full amount for something we did not need and were not given the option to unbundle. In this regard, and as a customer, I think it would be fair value to provide at least a free upgrade to LR3.

This being said, I am not going to do a fuss out of it, the upgrade is like €100, what is it in comparison to the M9 investment ?

[Shade]

I'm very interested to know as well... lets see whats gonna happen with it.

[UliWer]

In the german forum an answer from Leica was quoted:

 

"...Bis zum heutigen Datum wurde von Adobe noch kein Termin für die Veröffentlichung von Lightroom 3 publiziert.

Leica Camera AG befindet sich in Vertragsverhandlungen mit Adobe, wie unsere Kunden mit dem Update beliefert werden können.

Bis zum heutigen Tag gibt es noch keine Entscheidung von Seiten Adobe.

Zur Zeit können wir unseren Kunden nur empfehlen, die im Moment aktuelle Version zu laden und diese auch zu verwenden.

Wie es sich in Zukunft mit der Version 3.0 verhält, können wir zum heutigen Zeitpunkt leider noch nicht sagen.

Leica Camera AG bemüht sich aber allen Kunden in dieser Frage gerecht zu werden!..."

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/116548-adobe-photoshop-lightroom-3-a.html#post1284507

 

This says:

Adobe didn't publish a date for LR 3 yet. Leica is negotiating with Adobe to ensure customers will get the update. Adobe hasn't made a decision on this yet. Leica cannot give any information about Version 3.0 for the future but they are trying to fulfill the exspectations of their customers in this matter.

[viramati]

now I could be wrong but I presume that if you download your voucher number and then get the serial number form adobe after LR3 is released then it will licence you for that version of LR as version 2 will no longer be available. I would have to work that way because anyone who buys an M9 on the day LR3 is released will surely have to get LR3 as no other version will be available. I presume the problem will come for those who have already downloaded.

[Rolo]

This is consistent with all other software. It was the same for Phase One's Capture 1 software that came with the M8. You got version 4 and all the updates for version 4 and then when they came out with version 5 M8 owners had to purchase it. I don't see why it would be any different with Adobe.

 

Hey I've bought PS CS2 as a upgrade from PS version 6 then CS3 and CS4 as upgrades. Shouldn't I be entitled to a free upgrade to CS5? NO.

 

Now Leica may strike another deal with Adobe to allow NEW purchasers of M9's to LR3 and that may carry over to original buyers.

 

 

Phase One may be quite different as the software was a 'lite' version and the relationship with Leica ended before there was any need to extend it. Of course, the Leica/Adobe relationship may end when LR3 is launched. However, customers are now paying for cameras that will be delivered beyond the LR3 launch date, I presume. Forgive me for "presuming", but many posters here talk as though they know the facts.

 

Your CS5 comparison is obviously inapplicable. We're discussing here the subject of issued software for buyers, not continual upgrade. I'll be paying for CS5, just like you and am not concerned overly whether I have to pay the £100 for the LR3 upgrade. Nobody is expecting a free lunch and surely nobody expects to get the LR3 upgrade if they have taken the LR2 software via the Leica site.

 

There are definitely M9 owners that have not registered for the software; buyers who will receive their cameras the day before the launch of LR3; and the day after. Who will draw the line and how ? Date of manufacture, delivery to the dealer, receipt by the customer, or ...... registration (IMO).

[stunsworth]

Once LR3's released Leica may buy a shed load of Lightroom 2 CDs from Adobe and change the registration so that instead of sending you a serial number they include a LR2 CD in the box. Leica would then only pay a royalty to Adobe for the actual number of CDs stuffed into boxes.

[sakthorp]

Obtaining 'bundled OEM software' does not guarantee that you get the CURRENT version. It is most often a previous version. Canon used to bundle their entry level DSLR's with a copy of Photoshop Elements and it was a previous version and sometimes even TWO versions back. So, the agreement is made between Adobe and Leica.

 

I will download LR3 directly from Adobe's site as they provide a free 30 day trial where you can activate it when buying a license. If the license that Leica provided me indeed activates LR3, great. If not, I'll shell out the $99 upgrade cost as I feel that $99 is a bargain. (I suspect the upgrade to CS5 will cost twice that)

 

I have a feeling that it won't matter WHO you speak with at Adobe, we simply won't know how this will shake out until LR3 is available for download from Adobe. But to avoid disappointment, plan on paying for the upgrade.

 

 

now I could be wrong but I presume that if you download your voucher number and then get the serial number form adobe after LR3 is released then it will licence you for that version of LR as version 2 will no longer be available. I would have to work that way because anyone who buys an M9 on the day LR3 is released will surely have to get LR3 as no other version will be available. I presume the problem will come for those who have already downloaded.

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[potratz]

From my experience with Adobe and it is quite extensive since I am a partner of an advertising and design agency so we spend some serious cash on adobe products. You will not be able to use the serial for LR2 on the new version when it comes out. From past experience when we were provided serials to download software (from conventions) the serial was only good for the version of software being promoted.

 

In short I would not hold my breathe since I am 99.9% confident you will be disappointed when it won't accept it. If this was 1998 I would say you have no worries but adobe is very protective over their software...very protective!

[hoppyman]

.A number of owners of the M9 and I suppose the S2 and X1 have already paid for Lightroom 2 before buying a qualifying Leica product and have not used their licence from the TAN number to download their copy. All of us want to see if the serial number provided when you use your TAN for the download will be valid for LR3 (commercial release). The improvements in the new version are very significant for M9 owners especially. So much so that you will be able to select which processing engine you apply for all of your previous M8/9 files as well (and any other cameras types). I am speaking about noise reduction algorithms especially.

 

There are conflicting opinions on whether this (LR3 entitlement) will be valid. I am trying to re-find the reference I read recently from the Leica US (I think) that owners will be able to do this. Other references disagree.

 

Many M9 buyers will simply not have received their ordered cameras before LR3 is commercially released. Will those buyers then receive a licence for LR3 while earlier buyers do not? This disadvantages people that have already received their M9s and registered their cameras. Worth noting too that the retail prices for Adobe products vary greatly in different markets ( and Leica too I suppose! )

Adobe store prices

AUD 535.00 including tax. approx exchange about USD588.00 today

Same download if you live in USA USD 299.00

So we care about the value of the product and whether every Leica customer gets the same entitlement after the release of LR3. We are already Leica and Adobe customers, not people trying to gain some extra entitlement from Leica or Adobe.

 

Remember I am not talking about upgrades for people who have used their serial number entitlement provided by Leica Camera AG. They have dowloaded and are using the current version, the same as if the product was purchased at retail. In my opinion it is fair that those users should pay for future upgrades in line with the normal Adobe policy in that case. I am not referring to the point improvements which have always been available free.

 

Well actually, Leica Camera just refers To Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Nothing about 2 or 3 .

Quoted from the Leica M9 customer benefits booklet that came with the M9.

 

.....Once you have successfully registered in the owners login area of the Leica Camera home page, you will be able to download the current version of this software for free.....

 

Obviously the licence is subject to the conditions set, for example you can only download twice and further you must respect the Adobe licence conditions regarding installing and using your copy (2 machines at your location etc).

 

Lots of opinions and shoulds and maybes...

In my opinion, we should all know for sure within a week of the commercial release of LR3. I will certainly be upgrading, whether I have to pay or not.

I believe that Leica Camera will be fair to their customers on this.