gwelland Posted February 6, 2010 Share #21 Posted February 6, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now I can't substantiate this rumour or tittle-tattle but my dealer mentioned to me yesterday that our Leica rep had mentioned that the order backlog on M9's was well into four figures. Just gossip ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 6, 2010 Posted February 6, 2010 Hi gwelland, Take a look here Continuation of Leica Shipping Problems. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted February 6, 2010 Share #22 Posted February 6, 2010 But you know the reason, right, Graham? The big annual US photo show PMA comes up end of this month, and Leica will be introducing three new digital cameras, including the M10. Seriously, "well into four figures" sounds great to me for a company accustomed to selling 1500-2000 cameras per year. Though the range is certainly large enough to drive a pretty big truck through, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted February 6, 2010 Share #23 Posted February 6, 2010 But you know the reason, right, Graham? The big annual US photo show PMA comes up end of this month, and Leica will be introducing three new digital cameras, including the M10. Seriously, "well into four figures" sounds great to me for a company accustomed to selling 1500-2000 cameras per year. Though the range is certainly large enough to drive a pretty big truck through, isn't it? Howard, Did you mean 15,000 - 20,000? Thanks, k-hawinkler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted February 6, 2010 Share #24 Posted February 6, 2010 Backlog of four figures can be somwhere between 9999 and 1000 which must be correct. The annual production is about 10,000 for a normal year but was of order 20,000 when they launched the M8 (ie Year 1 of production) according to Stefan. Given that my dealer has been told that the M9 will not be exstock until August - September at the earliest....I guess that suggests that the current backlog is likely to be of order 6,000 to 8000. Hopefully Leica will soon be in a position to produce much larger volumes per month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 6, 2010 Share #25 Posted February 6, 2010 Indeed, the sooner they outsource to China the better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted February 6, 2010 Share #26 Posted February 6, 2010 Backlog of four figures can be somwhere between 9999 and 1000 which must be correct. The annual production is about 10,000 for a normal year but was of order 20,000 when they launched the M8 (ie Year 1 of production) according to Stefan. Given that my dealer has been told that the M9 will not be exstock until August - September at the earliest....I guess that suggests that the current backlog is likely to be of order 6,000 to 8000. Hopefully Leica will soon be in a position to produce much larger volumes per month. "Well into four figures" was my softening up of the number I was told. I was actually told that it was something like 10,000 (five figures) but I tried not to be too precise about a third or fourth hand number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted February 6, 2010 Share #27 Posted February 6, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) If it is five figures Leica is having a party, not a backlog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 6, 2010 Share #28 Posted February 6, 2010 "Well into four figures" was my softening up of the number I was told. I was actually told that it was something like 10,000 (five figures) but I tried not to be too precise about a third or fourth hand number. Leica should read this forum more closely. Because of waiting time, most people have stated here that they have ordered with numerous dealers - let's say 4 on average - in the hope that one will get their camera before the others. Maybe Leica - seeing such large 'orders' have waited to stockpile the cameras a little so that they can fulfil all orders at once. So, if that 10,000 backorder level is really 2,500 actual customers............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted February 6, 2010 Share #29 Posted February 6, 2010 Whatever the true order quantity is, I have mixed emotions about it. On one hand, I have sympathy for those waiting patiently for their cameras (it frustrated me too) and on the other there's elation that Leica have really found a winner with the M9 and their current glass offers. Keep demand strong, quality high & supply just tight enough and you've got a sustainable business model for premium goods. (there's a reason why the likes of Porsche restrict total production in a market irrespective of immediate demand) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted February 7, 2010 Share #30 Posted February 7, 2010 Whatever the true order quantity is, I have mixed emotions about it. On one hand, I have sympathy for those waiting patiently for their cameras (it frustrated me too) and on the other there's elation that Leica have really found a winner with the M9 and their current glass offers. Keep demand strong, quality high & supply just tight enough and you've got a sustainable business model for premium goods. (there's a reason why the likes of Porsche restrict total production in a market irrespective of immediate demand) Actually Porsche do not restrict demand. They build to their client's confirmed order, which maybe from a dealer. They do not build and then "live in hope" as happened prior to Dr Wiedeking taking over in 1993, when the company was almost bankrupt due to building too many cars without clients. There are however things that can be learned from Porsche: They agree a shipping date and meet or better this. They have superb quality and have a well oiled continuous improvement programme. It is rare to have a faulty anything from the factory although it happened to me on the 911 soft top......Porsche sent someone from the factory to effect the repair locally in France...and they gave me a car cover as a gesture. As a Porsche board member said " We build something that everyone wants and noone needs!" ....Hmm! They are easy to do deal with ...spare parts are available exstock, even for old classic Porsches. They sell a total product ....They offer driving lessons for example. They sell accessories such as hats, bags, roof racks . They have service centres everywhere .....Compare this with an Aston Martin for example! They understand their business as does the Rolex chairman....When asked about the accuracy of a Rolex compared to a quartz Swatch he said we sell image, not timepieces! Both companies do not get surprised by the size of client demand for their products. Rolex actually DO limit production volumes for Sport watches (eg Yachtmaster) to keep the rarity and prices high. I think IMHO Leica have a great deal to learn from the above players in terms of quality, after sales, meeting shipping commitments and communicating to their dealers, understanding their market. I detect a lot of frustrated clients and dealers today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted February 7, 2010 Share #31 Posted February 7, 2010 I agree with you regarding the build to order approach, but historically they have set a limit on the TOTAL number of vehicles for a particular market and do not just supply an unlimited build to order demand. I know that this was an issue with the US when the Cayman was released in the discussions I had with my dealer at the time. With respect to quality, well its true that they get there in the end (my 2001 911 convertible had really poor quality & cheap switch gear, something that improved every year and mine was much better than the previous year's version. Ditto the mount points for the rear of the hard top which were a bitch to lock down .. anyway I digress ...). I agree about the lessons to be learned about customer care etc though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted February 7, 2010 Share #32 Posted February 7, 2010 This is actually quite simple to understand. Leica puts little or no importance on maintaining shipping dates with the exception of service at Solms. They don t have the information in their system (which is SAP for Germany). With a service order in Solms you can get close. The service tracking system maintains the scheduled week your item will enter service. Like week 48 . When things are busy it can take weeks to enter the system and customer service has no information at all. Once it enters service a tech is supposed to update the system based on an estimated repair time. You have shipping and customs to content with. In the USA they routinely lost 2-3 weeks from completion until the item got to me. There are ,of course ,exceptions depending on the type of repair ,how Leica service priorities the order and how busy they are . Lots of examples of things sailing through under the right circumstances. But this is not the same as having accurate tracking information. On back ordered items like the 50 summilux ..good luck. The dealer calls the rep or the distributor. At best they know a general timetable ..like March ..which could mean Mar or maybe May but never Feb. The factory doesn t update the information formally and the dealers only know if they call ( a lot). The dealer knows your product is coming when he gets a shipping notice to expect it(and this is from the distributor in the USA Leica USA). If there is a part shortage (happens frequently) this information filters out like a rumor. This is not to say that a call from your dealer to customer service in Solms will not yield some accurate information..but if so its because its well known that a batch of the items are shipping or someone asked the factory over lunch. Its a small business with incomplete information systems and a factory that runs out of capacity(people,equipment and suppliers). My advice is to work directly with Solms whenever possible as it takes pressure off the system . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted February 7, 2010 Share #33 Posted February 7, 2010 If what you say is correct I think SAP and Leica Solms have a major issue to resolve. Basically SAP are the world leaders IMHO for in control systems...these are the guys that take sales orders and convert this input into how many screws purchasing should oder for delivery on a specific date to the manufacturing line, such that just in time production can generate the final product for shipment to the dealer on a given date. Basically every part of the company is in total sync. and the dealer knows with high assurance when he will recieive the item. OK I accept that there can be some delay due to Customs Clearance, and maybe one can be sympathetic about air cargo delays via DHL or whoever...but this in my experience is a delay of a few days, and lots of aggrevation. Previously people have told us that Leica Solms have taken a consultancy company that worked with Porsche to achieve Just in Time delivery. I previously argued that Just in Case Delivery maybe a better solution (ie inventory / warehouse stock) for a small company like Leica. If what you say is accurate I guess that maybe I was correct. You also commented that various parts from external suppliers maybe a bottleneck for Leica. Surely that is an issue with respect to stock levels, WIP and inventory cost that the company needs to hold to ensure a guaranteed supply to the end client for a branded, highly priced item. It is sad I believe that Leica management seem to have such issues on an ongoing basis, as it damages the marque, frustrates loyal clients, and presumably is not good for the P&L of the company or its future. I know such remarks upset many on this forum but the truth does often hurt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted February 7, 2010 Share #34 Posted February 7, 2010 Frank, Are you related to Count Arthur Strong? You have a similar turn of phrase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted February 7, 2010 Share #35 Posted February 7, 2010 If what you say is correct I think SAP and Leica Solms have a major issue to resolve. Basically SAP are the world leaders IMHO for in control systems...these are the guys that take sales orders and convert this input into how many screws purchasing should oder for delivery on a specific date to the manufacturing line, such that just in time production can generate the final product for shipment to the dealer on a given date. Basically every part of the company is in total sync. and the dealer knows with high assurance when he will recieive the item. OK I accept that there can be some delay due to Customs Clearance, and maybe one can be sympathetic about air cargo delays via DHL or whoever...but this in my experience is a delay of a few days, and lots of aggrevation. Previously people have told us that Leica Solms have taken a consultancy company that worked with Porsche to achieve Just in Time delivery. I previously argued that Just in Case Delivery maybe a better solution (ie inventory / warehouse stock) for a small company like Leica. If what you say is accurate I guess that maybe I was correct. You also commented that various parts from external suppliers maybe a bottleneck for Leica. Surely that is an issue with respect to stock levels, WIP and inventory cost that the company needs to hold to ensure a guaranteed supply to the end client for a branded, highly priced item. It is sad I believe that Leica management seem to have such issues on an ongoing basis, as it damages the marque, frustrates loyal clients, and presumably is not good for the P&L of the company or its future. I know such remarks upset many on this forum but the truth does often hurt! My comments are not intended to be critical of Leica but rather to point out what is actually happening and why. You need to appreciate that leica is a very small company (as a manufacture) and has a a pattern of demand that easily overwhelms its capacity.(in every area). The relevant point is that the buyers expectations should be balanced against these realities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 7, 2010 Share #36 Posted February 7, 2010 Roger. The sooner some people understand this the better. A visit to the factory in Solms should be a requirement of any Leica purchase, so that one may understand where the stuff comes from, who makes it, and why. IMO, it is remarkable that so much stuff is actually made and sold, given the restrictions of the production "line". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 7, 2010 Share #37 Posted February 7, 2010 I'm actually surprised that a company of Leica's size is using SAP. Every SAP installation I've ever been involved with has has resembled a huge cash eating machine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted February 8, 2010 Share #38 Posted February 8, 2010 Seems from reading this forum that some Leica dealers have a good reputation, some not. Are there actually any standards for becoming an authorized Leica dealer, or can anybody do it? Where you buy and the service offered makes a big difference, no matter what the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 8, 2010 Share #39 Posted February 8, 2010 I'm actually surprised that a company of Leica's size is using SAP. Every SAP installation I've ever been involved with has has resembled a huge cash eating machine. I was thinking the same. Is it just a legend that there has not yet been a single satisfactorily completed SAP implementation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted February 8, 2010 Share #40 Posted February 8, 2010 I agree that imposing SAP and the business processes that go with it are not useful for a small business with a production line approach that is based on individuals building by hand a major part of each camera on a stand alone basis. It would be useful if: Leica plan to move to the new Wetlar factory and then move towards a high volume production line where each worker does a small part of the assembly. Leica have the intent to imose discipline across their business such that sales, purchasing, manufacture, shipping all work in synchronism like a philarmonic orchestra... Today we seem to have a festival of jazz, where each player does his best and the dealers do not seem to know what is being delivered next. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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