The new Hassel doesn't seem to be an S2 killer.

[tashley]

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Well then you are lucky, I have shot one and it worked well, but I have heard from a lot of not so well functioning samples.

 

But despite this discussion about how long Leica will need to be able to really ship all S2 cameras 100% working, there is still the issue that it CANNOT be compared to MF cameras, as it has smaller sensor size - not worth going into that discussions again.

 

And for the argument that it is smaller and thus more easily to use and transport and delivers exceptional IQ (once it is really there) I only can say, I have a much more compact and transportable M43 system, which produces outstanding IQ (RAW and JPEG as well), is much more compact and MUCH cheaper - so what? I am happy with it for what I use it but it will never replace my real MF system.

 

I understand your arguments but some are wrong and the ones that are right don't justify your statement that the S2 'is dead and outdated before it is really available'...

 

Firstly, your claim that there are 'a lot' of not so well functioning samples: mine had two problems which became clear within the first six weeks, both of which got dealt with as soon as I mentioned them. My Phase One system, when it was first delivered, had a lens that was very badly out of whack and was similarly quickly dealt with. s**t happens as we know, and maybe more so to more complex systems, regardless of cost. I don't like this any more than you do but it appears to be true. What is difficult about your claim is the phrase 'a lot' so please show us the information on which you base this... all of this information helps others make informed buying decisions.

 

 

Secondly, the issue of sensor size. The S2 has a sensor of 45x30 and the P40 has a sensor of 43.9 x 32.9 in other words, they are very nearly the same. Neither is 'full frame' MF but both are widely treated by their owners as MF cameras and in truth, to do otherwise is an issue mostly of nitpicking IMHO but... whatever floats your boat.

 

Thirdly, your M4/3 system. Well, it is a lot smaller, a lot cheaper, and for its size gives pretty reasonable IQ (actually I think every M4/3 camera I have tried is not great IQ but hey) but it only serves as a reductio ad absurdum argument here. We are talking about comparing alternatives in the same ballpark here.

 

I wonder what your 'real' MF system is?

 

Best

 

Tim

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[ptomsu]

I understand your arguments but some are wrong and the ones that are right don't justify your statement that the S2 'is dead and outdated before it is really available'...

 

Firstly, your claim that there are 'a lot' of not so well functioning samples: mine had two problems which became clear within the first six weeks, both of which got dealt with as soon as I mentioned them. My Phase One system, when it was first delivered, had a lens that was very badly out of whack and was similarly quickly dealt with. s**t happens as we know, and maybe more so to more complex systems, regardless of cost. I don't like this any more than you do but it appears to be true. What is difficult about your claim is the phrase 'a lot' so please show us the information on which you base this... all of this information helps others make informed buying decisions.

 

 

Secondly, the issue of sensor size. The S2 has a sensor of 45x30 and the P40 has a sensor of 43.9 x 32.9 in other words, they are very nearly the same. Neither is 'full frame' MF but both are widely treated by their owners as MF cameras and in truth, to do otherwise is an issue mostly of nitpicking IMHO but... whatever floats your boat.

 

Thirdly, your M4/3 system. Well, it is a lot smaller, a lot cheaper, and for its size gives pretty reasonable IQ (actually I think every M4/3 camera I have tried is not great IQ but hey) but it only serves as a reductio ad absurdum argument here. We are talking about comparing alternatives in the same ballpark here.

 

I wonder what your 'real' MF system is?

 

Best

 

Tim

 

Well Tim,

 

after a very long period of investigation, trying, testing, reading through different fora etc, I finally decided for a Hasselblad H system.

 

Needless to say that I love the results and operation of this system including Phocus, which in my opinion is one of the best post processing SW packages available, knowing and comparing to C1, Aperture and LR.

 

Not sure why you choose the S System, you obviously may have your reasons. But PLEASE - just stop any sensor size comparisons, this is needless effort and even if you stress this much more, the S2 will never become a real MF camera WRT sensor size. I also consider the P40+ as a Crop MF camera, although it delivers exceptional results.

 

But what is far more important than just sensor size is the fact that the S2 does not offer the flexibility of a true MF system and we also had these discussions more than enough so let us skip them for this time.

 

I only answered to the original theme of the thread, that the Hasselblad should be an S" killer - well what should it kill? It is not really comparable IMHO. If folks are happy with the S System and are brave Leica followers, then this is ok! I myself decided to watch the S2 story from outside because I had too many issues with Leica in the past.

 

Maybe one day it will be safe for me to jump in again, but this is clearly far away and meanwhile I do meaningful work with great results with my very bad H System, which not even classifies to be an S2 killer. Really bad - right?

 

BTW - I cannot share your opinion about M43 IQ, this has been great with all FT cameras I used, there were different issues especially with Oly and compatibility for Pana, but IQ was always outstanding.

 

One remark - could it be that you do not like M43 because it i too cheap

[Simon Baker]

Well Tim,

 

after a very long period of investigation, trying, testing, reading through different fora etc, I finally decided for a Hasselblad H system.

 

Needless to say that I love the results and operation of this system including Phocus, which in my opinion is one of the best post processing SW packages available, knowing and comparing to C1, Aperture and LR.

 

Not sure why you choose the S System, you obviously may have your reasons. But PLEASE - just stop any sensor size comparisons, this is needless effort and even if you stress this much more, the S2 will never become a real MF camera WRT sensor size. I also consider the P40+ as a Crop MF camera, although it delivers exceptional results.

 

But what is far more important than just sensor size is the fact that the S2 does not offer the flexibility of a true MF system and we also had these discussions more than enough so let us skip them for this time.

 

I only answered to the original theme of the thread, that the Hasselblad should be an S" killer - well what should it kill? It is not really comparable IMHO. If folks are happy with the S System and are brave Leica followers, then this is ok! I myself decided to watch the S2 story from outside because I had too many issues with Leica in the past.

 

Maybe one day it will be safe for me to jump in again, but this is clearly far away and meanwhile I do meaningful work with great results with my very bad H System, which not even classifies to be an S2 killer. Really bad - right?

 

BTW - I cannot share your opinion about M43 IQ, this has been great with all FT cameras I used, there were different issues especially with Oly and compatibility for Pana, but IQ was always outstanding.

 

One remark - could it be that you do not like M43 because it i too cheap

 

 

I have to agree with you, Phocus 2 is simply brilliant. When I owned a H1 with a P21 I used Capture One and I just found it difficult if I'm truthful, I bought a H3D39 11 in October and downloaded Phocus which I found to be easier to use but still not great. Bring on Focus 2, man what a difference ! It's fast ( well on a Quad Core Mac Pro anyway ) easy to navigate and a real pleasure to use. Of course you cannot download Phocus unless you have a Hasselblad camera registered with Hasselblad so I guess many on this forum will not realise just how good it is.

 

With regard to an earlier post on "blad's Fuji lenses not being the real deal, I can only say such a comment could only come from someone who has not done their research before engaging their mouth. It is by now well known the lenses are designed by Hasselblad themselves and indeed they do outperform most Zeiss "blad lenses. When buying my H3 I learned off the dealer who had just come back from the 'blad seminar at Cape Canaveral that Fuji have two lens divisions, one for general photographic optics and cctv, and one that designs and builds optics for space and military use, it is this latter division that builds the H series lenses. When the lens arrives in Sweden it is again tested to ensure it meets Hasselblad's standards and then the Swedish built shutter is installed. By all means 'bash' the 'blad or anything else if you wish, that is your pro-ogative but at least be sure of the facts first.

 

I think the S2 is a very attractive camera, but then again in my eyes at least so is my H3, it handles really well, is well balanced and doesn't feel overly heavy ( unless you have the 55/110 attached ) , I wish Leica well and hope the S2 is a success for them however I for one prefer the modular design of traditional MF cameras.

 

No doubt the S2 has advantages over traditional MF cameras, but where it can't compete with my H3 is where for me it matters:-

1) I can remove my sensor unit and put it on a LF Tech camera or my Fuji GX680 111

2) When I need to clean the sensor it is so simple - just pop off the back, and a couple of blasts with a Rocket Blower normally does the job. If a wet clean is really needed its a heck of a lot easier to do it successfully with a removable back.

3) I have the option of a waist level finder when I need it, it's surprising how often that is too.

4) Lens rental, ( OK that will change at some point ) the H system has a good range of optics available to buy or rent now.

5) High flash sync right now, ( again will change when CS lenses arrive ) all H series lenses will sync up to 1/800ths sec

 

and finally, while I agree the term "killer" is a silly one to use there is undeniably one area the new H4D "kills' the S2 and thats price, as already pointed out the H4 is "much" cheaper than the Leica, IMO so much so that for someone looking to buy either of these to earn money off and not as "a purchase of the heart" the S2 isn't even in the same ball park.

 

kind regards Simon

[tashley]

Well Tim,

 

after a very long period of investigation, trying, testing, reading through different fora etc, I finally decided for a Hasselblad H system.

 

Needless to say that I love the results and operation of this system including Phocus, which in my opinion is one of the best post processing SW packages available, knowing and comparing to C1, Aperture and LR.

 

Not sure why you choose the S System, you obviously may have your reasons. But PLEASE - just stop any sensor size comparisons, this is needless effort and even if you stress this much more, the S2 will never become a real MF camera WRT sensor size. I also consider the P40+ as a Crop MF camera, although it delivers exceptional results.

 

But what is far more important than just sensor size is the fact that the S2 does not offer the flexibility of a true MF system and we also had these discussions more than enough so let us skip them for this time.

 

I only answered to the original theme of the thread, that the Hasselblad should be an S" killer - well what should it kill? It is not really comparable IMHO. If folks are happy with the S System and are brave Leica followers, then this is ok! I myself decided to watch the S2 story from outside because I had too many issues with Leica in the past.

 

Maybe one day it will be safe for me to jump in again, but this is clearly far away and meanwhile I do meaningful work with great results with my very bad H System, which not even classifies to be an S2 killer. Really bad - right?

 

BTW - I cannot share your opinion about M43 IQ, this has been great with all FT cameras I used, there were different issues especially with Oly and compatibility for Pana, but IQ was always outstanding.

 

One remark - could it be that you do not like M43 because it i too cheap

 

 

I've never used Phocus but people say really good things about it - I'm one of those guys who knows that C1 is good for him but treats it like kids treat medicine... whereas LR is my guilty pleasure. As for Hassy, well I road tested Hassy and Phase and ended up with Phase through the stupid belief that I'd need higher maximum shutter speeds. I hadn't shot MF since the 80's and had sort of forgotten just how shallow the DOF was and therefore how unlikely I was ever to use a fast shutter speed. Truth is, I preferred the feel of the Hassy.

 

So now I have the S2 alongside my Phase gear (with SLR and field bodies) and I fully agree that for now at least, the S2 is no replacement for the Phase stuff. As an SLR it is IMHO better by such a wide margin that there's no questioning it but, for e.g. I am off on a shoot to Dubai next week and will take M9 with various lenses and the P45+ on a Cambo because I will need rise and shift for the MF work. Until the S system comes up with at least some wides and hopefully a TS solution, I can't sell the Phase gear and even then maybe I'll only flog the SLR side of the setup and keep the back and the Cambo.

 

On the issue of 'what is MF' we'll have to agree to differ. For me all the Phase/Leaf/Hassy/S2 stuff is ballpark more like each other than it is FF 35mm.

 

As for M4/3, don't get me wrong. I own and will add to a system, I like it as a 'the best camera is the one you have with you' camera and carry it as such. I just don't quite get the IQ: it isn't as good as a proper digi SLR but is much better than say a GRDII. I like the grit of a Ricoh file and the quality of a 5DII or M9 but I have yet to 'get' creatively where the m4/3 look fits in for me. It looks like bad SLR rather than good compact, and I think that's why I'm not yet fully comfortable with it.

 

Too many cameras, too little time!

[ptomsu]

I've never used Phocus but people say really good things about it - I'm one of those guys who knows that C1 is good for him but treats it like kids treat medicine... whereas LR is my guilty pleasure. As for Hassy, well I road tested Hassy and Phase and ended up with Phase through the stupid belief that I'd need higher maximum shutter speeds. I hadn't shot MF since the 80's and had sort of forgotten just how shallow the DOF was and therefore how unlikely I was ever to use a fast shutter speed. Truth is, I preferred the feel of the Hassy.

 

So now I have the S2 alongside my Phase gear (with SLR and field bodies) and I fully agree that for now at least, the S2 is no replacement for the Phase stuff. As an SLR it is IMHO better by such a wide margin that there's no questioning it but, for e.g. I am off on a shoot to Dubai next week and will take M9 with various lenses and the P45+ on a Cambo because I will need rise and shift for the MF work. Until the S system comes up with at least some wides and hopefully a TS solution, I can't sell the Phase gear and even then maybe I'll only flog the SLR side of the setup and keep the back and the Cambo.

 

On the issue of 'what is MF' we'll have to agree to differ. For me all the Phase/Leaf/Hassy/S2 stuff is ballpark more like each other than it is FF 35mm.

 

As for M4/3, don't get me wrong. I own and will add to a system, I like it as a 'the best camera is the one you have with you' camera and carry it as such. I just don't quite get the IQ: it isn't as good as a proper digi SLR but is much better than say a GRDII. I like the grit of a Ricoh file and the quality of a 5DII or M9 but I have yet to 'get' creatively where the m4/3 look fits in for me. It looks like bad SLR rather than good compact, and I think that's why I'm not yet fully comfortable with it.

 

Too many cameras, too little time!

 

Fully agree!

 

Before I went for the H3D I was also VERY sceptical about Phocus, as a 5 year long C1 user and all the other SW packages. I only can say WOW about Phocus 2.0, together with the Hasselblad backs it does really wonders and feature wise I would call it on par with C1 - at least for what I need from such a SW.

 

WRT M43, I just want to mention here that I am really blown away with the capacities of the new EP2, IQ wise, feature wise and especially the EVF. This is an outstanding jewel and convinced me that future VFs will become more and more EVFs with high quality, actually finally replacing OVFs once.

 

Would love to see a M10 with EVF - if that ever happens

[ptomsu]

I have to agree with you, Phocus 2 is simply brilliant. When I owned a H1 with a P21 I used Capture One and I just found it difficult if I'm truthful, I bought a H3D39 11 in October and downloaded Phocus which I found to be easier to use but still not great. Bring on Focus 2, man what a difference ! It's fast ( well on a Quad Core Mac Pro anyway ) easy to navigate and a real pleasure to use. Of course you cannot download Phocus unless you have a Hasselblad camera registered with Hasselblad so I guess many on this forum will not realise just how good it is.

 

With regard to an earlier post on "blad's Fuji lenses not being the real deal, I can only say such a comment could only come from someone who has not done their research before engaging their mouth. It is by now well known the lenses are designed by Hasselblad themselves and indeed they do outperform most Zeiss "blad lenses. When buying my H3 I learned off the dealer who had just come back from the 'blad seminar at Cape Canaveral that Fuji have two lens divisions, one for general photographic optics and cctv, and one that designs and builds optics for space and military use, it is this latter division that builds the H series lenses. When the lens arrives in Sweden it is again tested to ensure it meets Hasselblad's standards and then the Swedish built shutter is installed. By all means 'bash' the 'blad or anything else if you wish, that is your pro-ogative but at least be sure of the facts first.

 

I think the S2 is a very attractive camera, but then again in my eyes at least so is my H3, it handles really well, is well balanced and doesn't feel overly heavy ( unless you have the 55/110 attached ) , I wish Leica well and hope the S2 is a success for them however I for one prefer the modular design of traditional MF cameras.

 

No doubt the S2 has advantages over traditional MF cameras, but where it can't compete with my H3 is where for me it matters:-

1) I can remove my sensor unit and put it on a LF Tech camera or my Fuji GX680 111

2) When I need to clean the sensor it is so simple - just pop off the back, and a couple of blasts with a Rocket Blower normally does the job. If a wet clean is really needed its a heck of a lot easier to do it successfully with a removable back.

3) I have the option of a waist level finder when I need it, it's surprising how often that is too.

4) Lens rental, ( OK that will change at some point ) the H system has a good range of optics available to buy or rent now.

5) High flash sync right now, ( again will change when CS lenses arrive ) all H series lenses will sync up to 1/800ths sec

 

and finally, while I agree the term "killer" is a silly one to use there is undeniably one area the new H4D "kills' the S2 and thats price, as already pointed out the H4 is "much" cheaper than the Leica, IMO so much so that for someone looking to buy either of these to earn money off and not as "a purchase of the heart" the S2 isn't even in the same ball park.

 

kind regards Simon

 

Same are my thoughts and feelings!

[Marty]

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Just curious, what is so terrific about Phocus? I use it (with a V system) but have yet to discover where it excels. Usability still seems to be a few generations behind LR (not to mention DAM features), and even C1 seems a lot smoother in operation. Of course it is not a fair comparison as Phocus is dedicated to the Blad raw files, and it does a good job with them. But what else? Is the advantage only apparent with H systems?

[tashley]

WRT M43, I just want to mention here that I am really blown away with the capacities of the new EP2, IQ wise, feature wise and especially the EVF. This is an outstanding jewel and convinced me that future VFs will become more and more EVFs with high quality, actually finally replacing OVFs once.

 

Would love to see a M10 with EVF - if that ever happens

 

I'm really interested to hear that: I have the Pen and I do use it quite a bit, even decided after taking a pre-production X1 on vacation recently that I preferred the Pen on balance and wouldn't buy an X1 (this decision now subject to review!) but despite the fact that I like the Pen's size and flexibility and can live with its files, I'm not truly wowed. So I was wondering what the EP2 would be like. Tell me more!

[Simon Baker]

Just curious, what is so terrific about Phocus? I use it (with a V system) but have yet to discover where it excels. Usability still seems to be a few generations behind LR (not to mention DAM features), and even C1 seems a lot smoother in operation. Of course it is not a fair comparison as Phocus is dedicated to the Blad raw files, and it does a good job with them. But what else? Is the advantage only apparent with H systems?

 

 

Marty,

 

Are you using the original Phocus program or "Phocus 2 ". IMO Phocus 2 is a hell of a lot better than the original version, so if you are indeed using the original you should upgrade to Phocus 2. If you have registered your 'blad in the "customer" section of their website you can download P2 free of charge. If you are using P2 already then all I can say is that IMO I find it simpler to use than C1 and whilst not perfect it is a huge step in the right direction if you need to process Hasselblad 3RF files, then I am using a H3D and not a V camera .

 

I shall say no more , as to be fair this is the Leica S2 forum

 

Kind regards Simon

[ptomsu]

Just curious, what is so terrific about Phocus? I use it (with a V system) but have yet to discover where it excels. Usability still seems to be a few generations behind LR (not to mention DAM features), and even C1 seems a lot smoother in operation. Of course it is not a fair comparison as Phocus is dedicated to the Blad raw files, and it does a good job with them. But what else? Is the advantage only apparent with H systems?

 

I am using Phocus 2, which is much better than all the 1-versions. It is feature rich enough, its GUI is perfect (for me at least, but I am obviously influenced by many years of using different post processing packages) and what you can get out in IQ from the 3F files is just amazing.

 

C1 supports more cameras (RAWs) but at least I could never get out the quality I get out of Phocus with C1. Maybe it is just my way of using it, but for me Phocus in combination with H-Backs is the best.

[ptomsu]

I'm really interested to hear that: I have the Pen and I do use it quite a bit, even decided after taking a pre-production X1 on vacation recently that I preferred the Pen on balance and wouldn't buy an X1 (this decision now subject to review!) but despite the fact that I like the Pen's size and flexibility and can live with its files, I'm not truly wowed. So I was wondering what the EP2 would be like. Tell me more!

 

I cannot speak about the EP1, but what I get out of the EP2 is just outstanding for me. Maybe it does not yield to the IQ you like, but for me - I compare with cameras like Dlux4 or similar and also such as 5D2 and D700 etc, I am more than happy with the results, as long as I stay blow ISO1000.

 

The biggest advantage for me is weight and size and this is why I really prefer M43 instead of normal DSLR today. And not to forget price.

 

Keep in mind my system for real photography is H3D plus several lenses, so if I need high IQ etc. then I have one of the best tools.

 

But the EP2 is for me the first time that a small and decently cheap camera fulfills my needs. After maybe 40 years of photography.

 

I am not looking for 100% perfection but close to it and this little marvel does it for me. Maybe it is only getting old