Jamie Roberts Posted December 9, 2006 Share #1 Posted December 9, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ok, here are some links to discuss proper M8 skin tones apart from polluting the thread on Yosemite As well, we could discuss Carsten's issues with skin tones under mixed light.... Here are some good examples of good M8 skin tones, I think, indoors and out of doors: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10408-leica-90-f2-aa-versatility.html#post105714 http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9637-new-m8-profiles-c1-instructions-8.html#post114516 And one of mine... There will be many more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 Hi Jamie Roberts, Take a look here M8 Skin tones . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rvaubel Posted December 9, 2006 Share #2 Posted December 9, 2006 Here are some good examples of good M8 skin tones, I think, indoors and out of doors: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10408-leica-90-f2-aa-versatility.html#post105714 http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10408-leica-90-f2-aa-versatility.html#post105714 And one of mine... There will be many more Jamie The skin tones look great. Where these photos taken with an IR filter? Could you give the particulars on further posts? It would be userful. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share #3 Posted December 9, 2006 Jamie The skin tones look great. Where these photos taken with an IR filter? Could you give the particulars on further posts? It would be userful. Rex Rex-- Thanks. I'm very pleased with what I'm getting, actually! No IR filter whatsoever (I can't find them anywhere!). That's the 35 Lux at about f2, IIRC (I miss EXIF ). C1, WB with a WhiBal card in post (one or two clicks for all hundred or so shots!), using that Chrome profile I'm working with and a curve to make the highlights look a wee bit more like print film (and keep the skin tones smooth, as opposed to contrasty). BTW--the detail on the actual shot is astounding. He should have shaved more carefully Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share #4 Posted December 9, 2006 Here's a fantastic set of test shots coming from the other side of the world from me. Lots of good looking skin tones there too, I think. M8 Test Run - a photoset on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 9, 2006 Share #5 Posted December 9, 2006 Here's a fantastic set of test shots coming from the other side of the world from me. Lots of good looking skin tones there too, I think. M8 Test Run - a photoset on Flickr Jamie I second your recommendation on Kuhn's test shots. Everyone should look at this site to get an idea of what the M8 can do Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest umb Posted December 9, 2006 Share #6 Posted December 9, 2006 Without knowing the scenery I would say that the picture presented above is way too yellow. I wouldn't want to discuss skin tones without the general color balance being fixed. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! . Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! . ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/11019-m8-skin-tones/?do=findComment&comment=114806'>More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 9, 2006 Share #7 Posted December 9, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Without knowing the scenery I would say that the picture presented above is way too yellow. I wouldn't want to discuss skin tones without the general color balance being fixed. [ATTACH]17841[/ATTACH] . Way too yellow??? I don't see that at all. I'm beginning to think that what we are doing here is more a test of the color profiling of our monitors and not the cameras Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share #8 Posted December 9, 2006 Rex--me too--I don't see much, if any, excess yellow there at all--and I was there . More and more I think this is a monitor game But--to be fair--there are Continental taste differences in skin tones. I often find European portraits--especially fashion--much too cold and very pale (and certainly my clients would). They may be more accurate, but I don't think so. And no--this is not an actual skin tone thing. There are more northern Europeans where I live than in parts of Europe But just look at the differences in something like Italian Vogue compared with the US versions. To me, many of the models look quite, um, un-alive. Ferdinand, you could probably take that shot into a much less yellow domain. That wouldn't really change the skin tones to magenta. Just make them more blue. Just for the heck of it, here it is. The skin tones, while not as warm, are still quite beautiful to me. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/11019-m8-skin-tones/?do=findComment&comment=114827'>More sharing options...
Guest umb Posted December 9, 2006 Share #9 Posted December 9, 2006 I know that in "Marlboro Country" you prefer a reddish cast. But look at the bricks on the right side. Lower half = original, upper half = my version. Which one looks more natural (not necessarily better) to you? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/11019-m8-skin-tones/?do=findComment&comment=114832'>More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share #10 Posted December 9, 2006 Ferdinand--you beat me to it! Look back here: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/11192-m8-skin-tones.html?posted=1#post115047 And you're right of course--the fixed one looks better on the bricks I should add, too, that this is partly the last area where the profiles need a tweak--in green / blue response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted December 9, 2006 Share #11 Posted December 9, 2006 I dunno, I've taken one of these images and punchified it a bit. Who cares about natural ? Knock their socks off ! Edmund Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 9, 2006 Share #12 Posted December 9, 2006 Just re-posting my problem shots to keep track of this issue. In the brief time I had my M8, it put out a few images like these, which had me worried. This is not a textile, but might still well be related to the IR sensitivity. I hope this will be fixed by the time my camera returns next week. The files were white balanced on the white marble table and the M8 itself, respectively. All colours in the images look as they really were, except the skin. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/11019-m8-skin-tones/?do=findComment&comment=114845'>More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 10, 2006 Author Share #13 Posted December 10, 2006 Carsten-- Just to track this, how did you process these? Are these JPEGs? Or from LightRoom? I still think that's a broken camera. The shots look posterized towards magenta. I've never seen that, even in mixed light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 10, 2006 Author Share #14 Posted December 10, 2006 I dunno, I've taken one of these images and punchified it a bit. Who cares about natural ? Knock their socks off ! Hey Edmund--heh--these were just out of C1 is all I understand Ferdinand's point about the warmth though. But for a print you can take them anywhere--and some clients like punchy, certainly! Nicely done. Still, skin tones are good, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 10, 2006 Share #15 Posted December 10, 2006 Carsten-- Just to track this, how did you process these? Are these JPEGs? Or from LightRoom? I still think that's a broken camera. The shots look posterized towards magenta. I've never seen that, even in mixed light. There weren't many shots like this, and the rest were fine, except for the standard magenta clothes. I have seen other shots like this from others, and there are many shots with a hint of this, like the Jack-shot from RobSteve. Note my sweater in the second shot, which is normally black, and several items of cloth in the first shot which are very magenta. It looks like there is lots of magenta lighting in those two shots. I just loaded the shots into Lightroom, white balanced as described, and exported. Nothing else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted December 10, 2006 Share #16 Posted December 10, 2006 A couple things that strike me, for one, ACR has no color balance eyedropper, and I think for good reason, they are notoriously unreliable. Aperture had enormous problems with their wb eyedropper implementation, but it has since been improved. I would rather dial in a K value and tint than rely on wb. For one thing, do we know what the pixel sample size is set to in capture one? and can this be controlled? If it is set to too small a pixel sample, things like this can happen. Really it needs to average at least 3x3 or better 7x7 pixels to be close to accurate, and even then, using it can introduce all sorts of problems. In the posted examples, the camera was used as the source point, which we know is grey, however, it is also reflective, and if there was some light being reflected by the chrome with a color to it, wb by it would yield a incorrect result.The marble table top example, I might have tried the back of the newspaper, although that would have yielded a bluer result. This is one thing I don't like about capture one, the lack of K presets. this does not entirely explain what is going on here, but it does explain many other issues that people are having. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 10, 2006 Author Share #17 Posted December 10, 2006 Hmmm. Carsten--is the M8 even supported by LightRoom? I mean officially? Because that looks like a broken camera to me. Did you try those same shots in ACR if not C1? If not, I wouldn't worry about it, because LightRoom is still beta software, to boot, and we know that the M8 is not a plain-jane DNG implementation. Robert--yes, there is a WB dropper in ACR, so I'm not sure what your point is. I've never had trouble white balancing in C1, which *does* in fact have a kelvin and tint slider (and presets if the camera's raw format supports it. So the Canons do; the Leicas don't). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebride Posted December 10, 2006 Share #18 Posted December 10, 2006 Carsten, You said "All colours in the images look as they really were, except the skin." Did you check WB set in the camera? I tried to have similar result you had and found them around 2000 oK. Dejan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 10, 2006 Share #19 Posted December 10, 2006 Dejan, the temperature is set to 2000K, which is the end of the Lightroom slider. Jamie, I know you think it looks broken, but I can show you many other spot-on pictures. Take my word for it, the camera worked really well for almost all shots, and then it would pop out a couple like this. Lightroom supports the M8. This kind of thing doesn't happen by accident. It *is* a beta though, so there is some uncertainty there. I can try C1LE, but since the other colours in the pictures are okay, I doubt that it would do better. Robert W., I know that the eyedroppers are not reliable. I usually use it several times on roughly the same area until I am happy with the results. I also usually tweak with the Blue-Yellow and Magenta-Green sliders on difficult shots. Note that both pictures look relatively normal before white balanced, just like many other incandescent shots. I think the problem might be that the M8 appears to have a slight magenta cast in general, or just strong reds, compared to other cameras. When the camera guesses the white balance really badly, and one then white balances manually later, it may need to move the colours quite far from the recorded ones, and the little extra magenta becomes magnified beyond the realistic. I should repeat that while I am concerned, I am expecting this problem to go away when Leica fixes my camera. The firmware update presumably improves the auto-white balance. I also bought a WhiBal card, and will use it in tricky situations. I doubt this would have happened if I had set the white balance manually. ------------------ Edit: Well, one part of the mystery has been cleared up: Lightroom is not handling these pictures right. Setting 2000K in C1LE gives much better results than setting 2000K in Lightroom. I still don't like the colours (they seem very flat), but at least C1LE gives a decent starting point. I wonder why Lightroom handled most pictures great, but these ones so badly? Weird. Okay, I am off to Adobe's fora, to post my DNG for them to tune Lightroom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted December 10, 2006 Share #20 Posted December 10, 2006 Carsten, those are by far the worst images I've seen out of an M8, so I can understand your concernes with the camera you had. Did you try any other RAW conversion software. As you point out Lightroom is a beta and as such _will_ have bugs in it - or to be more accurate more bugs than the final release :-). Who knows if there was a combination of colour temperature and actual colours that was causing it problems? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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