marcoma Posted January 25, 2010 Share #41 Posted January 25, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Funny to read all this 2 hours after my return from Beijing and HK - In my opinion releasing this edition was a mistake by Leica. There is really very little to celebrate when it comes to the government in China and Leica has gone a bridge too far with this. I didn't spot any of those limited editions while I was there, but I did manage to spot a M9 (black) in a shopwindow (too little time to go in an ask for the price though). The trip however brought one impression home: Most people don't give a damn about free speech or democracy as long as they have the ability to shop. As many people in Beijing (!) told me, 'Many people left Hong Kong when the british lease ended, but then they returned finding that it was not so bad to have private limitations as long as their business was still operating'. I for one am NOT impressed with totalitarian governments - and yes, I have been through the cold war (not on the eastern side, but close enough) - but I also know that I support them by buying goods that were produced there... But apparently, even not doing this (ie buying Leica) doesn't make a difference... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Hi marcoma, Take a look here LEICA supports the China government!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rob_x2004 Posted January 25, 2010 Share #42 Posted January 25, 2010 I'm sorry, but the comments on communism/socialism made by people who have never lived in those societies are oversimplified to the point that they are simply funny.... Take you to task on that one. You should have writted, '...oversimplified, ill informed and bigoted ...'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AgXlove Posted January 25, 2010 Share #43 Posted January 25, 2010 I'm sorry, but the comments on communism/socialism made by people who have never lived in those societies are oversimplified to the point that they are simply funny.... You conveniently ignore the fact that we U.S. residents are currently living under a socialist government. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AgXlove Posted January 25, 2010 Share #44 Posted January 25, 2010 Take you to task on that one. You should have writted, '...oversimplified, ill informed and bigoted ...'. Ah, yes: Accusations of ignorance and bigotry aimed at those who do not worship at the altar of leftism. Such intolerance... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 26, 2010 Share #45 Posted January 26, 2010 Take you to task on that one. You should have writted, '...oversimplified, ill informed and bigoted ...'. There seems to be a lot of that on this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmes Posted January 26, 2010 Share #46 Posted January 26, 2010 I bought Mao's Little Red Book when it was first translated to English and made its way to the the US. Walgreen's was selling it and I bought it, still have it, pristine condition. Does this mean that I supported, along with Walgreen Drugs, the peoples republic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakewood Posted January 26, 2010 Share #47 Posted January 26, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah, yes: Accusations of ignorance and bigotry aimed at those who do not worship at the altar of leftism. Such intolerance... If it were only about left, right and centre and other fixed mindsets. It's about the truth existing in different perspectives and putting yourself into someone else's shoes for a moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 26, 2010 Share #48 Posted January 26, 2010 If your find yourself in disagreement with someone, always walk a mile in his shoes - at the very least, you'll wind up a mile away from him, and wearing his shoes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted January 28, 2010 Share #49 Posted January 28, 2010 What you haven't noticed in the spec is that there is a filter system which removes dead bodies or anti-government protests - or ugly children so that when the film is developed, everything comes up roses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted January 28, 2010 Share #50 Posted January 28, 2010 I would have welcomed some input from wls (Shanghai) to this thread, but so far nothing. Perhaps he could comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AgXlove Posted January 31, 2010 Share #51 Posted January 31, 2010 If it were only about left, right and centre and other fixed mindsets. It's about the truth existing in different perspectives and putting yourself into someone else's shoes for a moment. Let's put ourselves into the shoes of the 3000 (Red Cross estimate) unarmed protestors who were murdered by "their" own government in Tiananmen Square in 1989. While we're at it, let's put ourselves in the shoes of the 20-35 million people the Communist Chinese murdered in their ongoing genocidal rampage from 1949-1976. Let's ask those folks about "the truth existing in different perspectives." [sarcasm] Of course, these murdered citizens had it coming - they dared to dissent against a socialist/communist regieme, which can do no wrong. After all, socialist/communist governments do have the right to murder their citizens with impunity - while harsh interrogation techniques carried out by the employees of the American government are crimes against humanity.[/sarcasm] Maybe I'm being judgemental by condemning the mass murder of the ChiCom government, but that's okay (with me, at least). Being condemned for being "judgemental" is much easier to live with than the indefensible intellectual dishonesty and outright denial required to excuse genocide perpetuated by a government - just because it is a socialist/communist government. Like it or not, there are indeed things that are universally wrong. Genocide is one of those things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakewood Posted February 1, 2010 Share #52 Posted February 1, 2010 Neither did I dispute Tiananmen Square in 1989 (when I was traveling with Chinese in Europe) nor did I doubt the victims of the Cultural Revolution. What I would like you to consider is asking the today's average Chinese what they think about their country and government. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozenace Posted February 1, 2010 Share #53 Posted February 1, 2010 Every country has its dark patches in history. You can't deny that economic development in China has lifted millions out of poverty. If you had civil war, it wouldn't really benefit the world as whole. Media censorship etc. you can circumvent the rules + thousands of Chinese go abroad every year to get educated. Maybe there will come a day when the government is mature enough to admit its mistakes... but to be honest, I doubt it. In Asian cultures it's embarassing to 'Lose Face 丢脸', well, obviously the government messed up royally with loads of events. Yes, it's true that people get brainwashed. The church brainwashes and did so for centuries. Fanatical Muslims brainwash people to do weird things. The US government brainwashed people to believe that Saddam had Weapons of mass destructions. 2 wrongs don't make it right, but noone's perfect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AgXlove Posted February 1, 2010 Share #54 Posted February 1, 2010 Neither did I dispute Tiananmen Square in 1989 (when I was traveling with Chinese in Europe) nor did I doubt the victims of the Cultural Revolution. What I would like you to consider is asking the today's average Chinese what they think about their country and government. Point taken. When the opportunity to do so arises, I will do that. My point, which many apparently have missed, is this: The Chinese government has made it abundantly clear to their people - and to the world as a whole - that they don't give a rat's ass what is thought of their actions. Only a government of inhuman barbarians murders tens of millions with impunity and tells the world to **** off if they don't like it. Such acts cannot be minimized, excused or ignored - yet in the interest of financial gain, nations and multibillion dollar corporations minimize, excuse and ignore China's savagery. If that's not the very definition of hypocrisy ("the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities or standads that one does not actually hold," saith Wikipedia) then I don't know what is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozenace Posted February 1, 2010 Share #55 Posted February 1, 2010 The cultural revolution happened almost 50 years ago by a different leader and under different circumstances, my parents got through it (they had to go from city life to live on a farm... ), seems like what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. In 89, my dad got a Chinese government scholarship to study in Germany, so I have quite a breadth of experience (10 years Germany, 6 years international school in Beijing, 6 years in the UK, 3 languages { German, Chinese, English} + a few programming languages). Every generation of the Chinese government is learning and trying to improve. In the 1800/1900s, several Western countries and Japan stole about 200 years worth of development, including industrialization. It's true that many people have lost their lives... If there was no Opium war and Japan didn't invade China (my grandfather slaved for them too), then there would have been no Cultural revolution and maybe a constitutional monarchy of sorts, there is shared responsibility. If you look at the casualty stats of WW2, China lost between 10-20 million people, second only to the Soviet Union. In recent years, Japan has been trying to wash their history books of history, claiming that incidents like the Nanjing Massacre never existed. Imagine if they also tried to wash Pearl Harbour out of their books, claiming it was a routine exercise. What it boils to is, the US is selling weapons to Japan/Taiwan/Korea (you know that weapons companies sponsor wealthy politicians). War sells news. What bigger news than China going to war? (I was at the fmr Yugoslavian embassy in Beijing after the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, CNN news crews all over the place). News are all biased, no matter if you read Chinadaily's propaganda or Timesonline in the UK. For the Timesonline, all their comments are censored according to their own political views (their correspondent in Beijing can't even speak basic Chinese). I've got friends who work at big multinational companies in Beijing (WPP group, DHL Logistics, Microsoft), they know full well that the Tiananmen incident happened, so what? Worst case scenario: 1) UN expels China from the Security Council 2) WTO suspends trade relations with China and imposes sanctions 3) The coalition of the willing adds Communism to its list of things to get rid of. Result: 1) The US economy collapses, as the treasury bonds that have been funding the American dream are now worthless. 2) US and China go to war, WW3 ensues, 2 billion people die. 3) Some terrorist group becomes the next world power, because their mountains are impervious to nuclear weapons. Conclusion: This discussion is pointless and doesn't relate to Leica in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozenace Posted February 2, 2010 Share #56 Posted February 2, 2010 Oh yeah, by the way, if you want to talk about hypocrisy: "During the Second World War, a top secret Japanese army unit � unit 731 � committed some of the worst atrocities in modern history. It developed the art of germ warfare and deliberately spread typhoid, cholera and bubonic plague throughout China. " 50 years after, the Japanese government still denies involvement in this, helped partly by the fact that the US decided to absorb the knowledge in exchange for pardons. Unit 731 - A Half Century of Denial The guy who lead this unit even went on to develop US biochemical weapons, just imagine if you took the leader at Auschwitz to go to the US and build gas chambers. on the German wiki page UNIT 731: The Atrocities of Unit 731 were simply omitted from Japanese history books about WW2. Instead, a monument has been erected for this unit in Tokyo. Only after a law suit involving 180 Chinese for the acceptance, apology and compensation was filed, as well as the confession of several members of this Unit, did the Japanese change their attitude towards history. In August 2002, the Tokyo district court proclaimed for the first time that the war crimes of Unit 731 did actually exist. Auf Deutsch: "Die Taten der Einheit 731 werden in vielen japanischen Geschichtsbüchern über den Zweiten Weltkrieg einfach übergangen. In Tokio existiert statt dessen ein Denkmal für diese Einheit. Erst nachdem eine Klage von 180 Chinesen auf Eingeständnis, Entschuldigung und Wiedergutmachung der von Einheit 731 begangenen Verbrechen bei der japanischen Regierung eingegangen war und einige Mitglieder der Einheit ihre Verbrechen öffentlich zugaben, änderte sich das Verhalten der Japaner zu ihrer eigenen Geschichte. Im August 2002 gab der Gerichtshof des Distrikts Tokio in seinem Urteil erstmals zu, dass die Einheit 731 und die von ihr begangenen Kriegsverbrechen tatsächlich existiert haben." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted February 2, 2010 Share #57 Posted February 2, 2010 If Leica makes a Hirohito edition I'll be sure to let them know how I feel about that also. Point is: You can certainly make a special edition that celebrates China, Chinese culture, Chinese art or for that matter Chinese food...But celebrating Mao is total BS. Saying that it's "just business" is also BS...it's always "just business" and if we all live under that standard we are creating our own little hell on earth. Leica screwed the pooch on this deal and tarnished their own heritage of supporting open expression and justice (read up on the Leitz family) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted February 2, 2010 Share #58 Posted February 2, 2010 Funny to read all this 2 hours after my return from Beijing and HK - In my opinion releasing this edition was a mistake by Leica. There is really very little to celebrate when it comes to the government in China and Leica has gone a bridge too far with this. I didn't spot any of those limited editions while I was there, but I did manage to spot a M9 (black) in a shopwindow (too little time to go in an ask for the price though).The trip however brought one impression home: Most people don't give a damn about free speech or democracy as long as they have the ability to shop. As many people in Beijing (!) told me, 'Many people left Hong Kong when the british lease ended, but then they returned finding that it was not so bad to have private limitations as long as their business was still operating'. I for one am NOT impressed with totalitarian governments - and yes, I have been through the cold war (not on the eastern side, but close enough) - but I also know that I support them by buying goods that were produced there... But apparently, even not doing this (ie buying Leica) doesn't make a difference... Amen brother. Sad but true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twittle Posted February 2, 2010 Share #59 Posted February 2, 2010 The cultural revolution happened almost 50 years ago. Indeed. And it happened during the period this special Leica edition is commemorating. Therefore, this camera is celebrating the Cultural Revolution and all the other atrocities committed by the PRC against its own people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maddoc2003jp Posted February 2, 2010 Share #60 Posted February 2, 2010 Just yesterday a long article appeared on the front-page of "The Daily Yomiuri" about the results of three years consulting of a joint panel of Japanese and Chinese academics on this topic (Japan-China Joint History Research Panel). In recent years, Japan has been trying to wash their history books of history, claiming that incidents like the Nanjing Massacre never existed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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