Dont get the point of the S2; could their owners enlighten me?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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FYI that is a Hassy hand strap on the Phase and just a R9 generic camera strap on the S2 , not sure what the S2 strap actually looks like. I just needed something on the S2 for security reasons to grab just in case. So I custom made the strap on the S2 from a R9 strap.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Honestly for me it all comes down to the grip and if it is comfortable, which both of them fit me well except the bottom of the S2 grip got pretty wide at the bottom which bugged me since i have smaller hands and I have arthritis so hard to judge by me and my feel of them when it comes to the hands end. BTW I wish we had a Hassy at the time but they also do feel nice in your hands. Really depends on what you like, no one can tell you one is better than the other. It's all about YOU

[tashley]

Hi Vieri, I am very well thank you.. nice to hear from you!

 

As you say, including batteries we're about even so there must be some other reason why the S2 kit feels better for this sort of work and it comes down to three things:

 

1) The mirror and shutter are a lot nicer and require less in the way of tripod/head combination. I cannot stress this enough. The AFDIII body, when fired, is like holding a car while someone slams the door and the Phamy shutter lag is, well, not to my taste (and yes I have tried the new body and yes it is a bit better! In fact I have one on order...)

 

2) The S2 battery lasts forever so no need to carry two camera batteries and three sets of Li-ion AA's when on walkabout. Also no need when travelling to carry the bulky Phase charger, a 4 batt Li-ion charger and a two batt Li-ion charger. Just a dinky wall plug with a thin cord. Bliss.

 

3) The camera feels, to me (and I totally agree with Guy's comments about personal taste here) like something designed to be used in the hand rather than on a tripod.

 

I also just find the shape and weight distribution of the S2 to be much nicer to walk around with...

 

These Phase systems are really really good, don't get me wrong. I still have mine... for now ;-)

 

 

Hello Tim, how are you? First of all, thank you very much for sharing with us your impressions with the S2 (pics and all), I do appreciate it very much. Regarding your comment on portability, I got curious and checked some specs around; I came out with some interesting results:

 

S2 - 1410 gr. (including batteries);

70mm - 740 gr.

180 mm 1150 gr.

 

total weight: 3.300 gr

 

P1 645 DF - 1400 gr (including DB w/out batteries)

80 mm - 330 gr.

150 mm - 780 gr.

 

total weight: 2.510 (less 6 AA batteries)

 

adding the batteries to the P1 kit, I guess we are about even. Of course I do not doubt your impressions and results, so I am curious about what makes you feel the S2 to be lighter than the P1 kit; I guess the form factor plays a very important role here while using the cam, while of course there isn't much difference while carrying it around, I suppose (unless the S2 is more "fitting" into a camera bag, which means you can carry it with a smaller bag, which may be part of the "lighter" impression).

[Vieri]

Hi Vieri, I am very well thank you.. nice to hear from you!

 

As you say, including batteries we're about even so there must be some other reason why the S2 kit feels better for this sort of work and it comes down to three things:

 

1) The mirror and shutter are a lot nicer and require less in the way of tripod/head combination. I cannot stress this enough. The AFDIII body, when fired, is like holding a car while someone slams the door and the Phamy shutter lag is, well, not to my taste (and yes I have tried the new body and yes it is a bit better! In fact I have one on order...)

 

2) The S2 battery lasts forever so no need to carry two camera batteries and three sets of Li-ion AA's when on walkabout. Also no need when travelling to carry the bulky Phase charger, a 4 batt Li-ion charger and a two batt Li-ion charger. Just a dinky wall plug with a thin cord. Bliss.

 

3) The camera feels, to me (and I totally agree with Guy's comments about personal taste here) like something designed to be used in the hand rather than on a tripod.

 

I also just find the shape and weight distribution of the S2 to be much nicer to walk around with...

 

These Phase systems are really really good, don't get me wrong. I still have mine... for now ;-)

 

Hello Tim,

 

thanks for your answer - what you say makes a lot of sense; I especially agree with:

 

2) Phase should definitely get out of the 6-AA battery thing. While I understand and appreciate the possibility of using 6 AA in case of emergency, in this day and age a serious Li-ion battery lasting a few thousands of shots (like Nikon D series had it for years now) shouldn't be a problem to include - even without modifying the body shell. Leave the 6-AA adaptor for emergency, of course. Best of both worlds;

 

I agree to a degree with:

 

1) mirror slap is something I can live with; not more terrible than my Hassy V, and I can hand-hold the 645 AF with good results down to pretty slow shutter speeds (I have very steady hands though, so YMMV); shutter lag is - for lack of a better word - dreadful when one uses the 645 with a DB; while using it with a film back is practically non-existant (am not sure you tried this). I am sure the new DF body fixes this (throwing away film compatibility though, I guess that was the cause of such a lag to begin with);

 

Nr. 3 is of course subjective, and until I will be able to get my hands on the S2 I will not be able to offer any opinion here; I am pretty comfortable holding the 645 though, so this alone wouldn't be enough for me to jump ship. Plus, in case of the above mentioned jump, I would have to keep my back to use with technical cameras; so that would be a very painful jump indeed under a financial standpoint anyway, until a S2 gets to where I am based (or I go where a S2 is), and until the S2 will have more than 2 lenses to offer, this is all very very theoretical for me, which is nice in that it leaves me with lot of time to think things through. The new Phase body will get here in the meantime, possibly LS lenses too, and that would be a good incentive for me to stay where I am.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Tim and Vieri,

 

Is there another variable here.? The viewfinder have not been brought up.

 

I kind of got off the MF train at the end of the century, but I think its safe to say my old hassy finder do not compare to the S2 finder. I was quite taken with the crispness and brightness of that finder.

 

.

[tashley]

Tim and Vieri,

 

Is there another variable here.? The viewfinder have not been brought up.

 

I kind of got off the MF train at the end of the century, but I think its safe to say my old hassy finder do not compare to the S2 finder. I was quite taken with the crispness and brightness of that finder.

 

.

 

I'll tell you how good it is: I never noticed it was there, which was why I never noticed it! :D:D

[tashley]

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Hello Tim,

 

thanks for your answer - what you say makes a lot of sense; I especially agree with:

 

2) Phase should definitely get out of the 6-AA battery thing. While I understand and appreciate the possibility of using 6 AA in case of emergency, in this day and age a serious Li-ion battery lasting a few thousands of shots (like Nikon D series had it for years now) shouldn't be a problem to include - even without modifying the body shell. Leave the 6-AA adaptor for emergency, of course. Best of both worlds;

 

I agree to a degree with:

 

1) mirror slap is something I can live with; not more terrible than my Hassy V, and I can hand-hold the 645 AF with good results down to pretty slow shutter speeds (I have very steady hands though, so YMMV); shutter lag is - for lack of a better word - dreadful when one uses the 645 with a DB; while using it with a film back is practically non-existant (am not sure you tried this). I am sure the new DF body fixes this (throwing away film compatibility though, I guess that was the cause of such a lag to begin with);

 

Nr. 3 is of course subjective, and until I will be able to get my hands on the S2 I will not be able to offer any opinion here; I am pretty comfortable holding the 645 though, so this alone wouldn't be enough for me to jump ship. Plus, in case of the above mentioned jump, I would have to keep my back to use with technical cameras; so that would be a very painful jump indeed under a financial standpoint anyway, until a S2 gets to where I am based (or I go where a S2 is), and until the S2 will have more than 2 lenses to offer, this is all very very theoretical for me, which is nice in that it leaves me with lot of time to think things through. The new Phase body will get here in the meantime, possibly LS lenses too, and that would be a good incentive for me to stay where I am.

 

I think there's no rush, whatsoever, and from what I saw you're doing a really nice job with your Phase kit! I have to say though that when I got a pre-production 'new' Phase body to try for a day's studio shoot last fall, my heart fell to find that the AAs were still there and that though the shutter/mirror and the lag were a bit better, they were only a bit better... I wonder if the old body has less lag when used with a P40+ or 65+ because the Dalsa sensors need no wake up? Hmm..

 

My pet hate, I really mean hate here, was that even when you pre-focus the lens in MF mode, the Phase body still makes an 'I'm trying to focus' whine, about half a second it feels like, when you press the shutter before it takes the shot. GET ON WITH IT YOU MOFO I screamed, many a time, as the alien spacecraft/rare bird/gorgeous light hovered then moved out of shot just as the shutter eventually fired...

 

I found myself wondering yesterday if I would better have invested the new cash in an upgrade to P65+ and then I opened C1 to find a file I needed that had been shot on a Cambo with Schneider and LCC and somehow the software has lost the LCC file and the image has a cast... these irritations are the cost, I know, of ultimate IQ but... GRRRR!!!!

[marknorton]

Seems clear Leica have worked wonders with the S finder. They clearly understand the benefit of a bright finder with excellent eye comfort and built in dioptre which makes me all the more annoyed they continue to dish up the same dreary old finder for the M. It really is a pity they cannot be bothered to do something better.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think there's no rush, whatsoever, and from what I saw you're doing a really nice job with your Phase kit! I have to say though that when I got a pre-production 'new' Phase body to try for a day's studio shoot last fall, my heart fell to find that the AAs were still there and that though the shutter/mirror and the lag were a bit better, they were only a bit better... I wonder if the old body has less lag when used with a P40+ or 65+ because the Dalsa sensors need no wake up? Hmm..

 

My pet hate, I really mean hate here, was that even when you pre-focus the lens in MF mode, the Phase body still makes an 'I'm trying to focus' whine, about half a second it feels like, when you press the shutter before it takes the shot. GET ON WITH IT YOU MOFO I screamed, many a time, as the alien spacecraft/rare bird/gorgeous light hovered then moved out of shot just as the shutter eventually fired...

 

I found myself wondering yesterday if I would better have invested the new cash in an upgrade to P65+ and then I opened C1 to find a file I needed that had been shot on a Cambo with Schneider and LCC and somehow the software has lost the LCC file and the image has a cast... these irritations are the cost, I know, of ultimate IQ but... GRRRR!!!!

 

 

Hmmm not even remotely a issue anymore with a DF/P40+. ALL gone. Much faster back with no wakeup and it makes a difference. Read this Tim pretty interesting how fast i was able to go and the s2 is actually maybe a touch faster. Whole new breed out there Phase One DF, P40+ and Sensor Plus Combination - The GetDPI Photography Forums

[okram]

Although I disagree, Mark, the M finder is very very good (at least for what I need...), I think that the finder is the single most important part of the camera...

 

Thats why some more about S2 finder would be appreciated- it is bright, but how about transitions to blur, manual focusing, and so...

 

(for example last year I sold my Ds2 to buy 5D2, only to discover that it is impossible to judge what is sharp- it is bright- but if you use tilt lens (to blur something) it will show significantly less blur than there really is- and stopped down, compared to aperture wide open view through the finder. It is also impossible to sharpen manually a 35mm lens, for example, without AF confirmation. The replacement screen makes images significantly darker...an some more-so the conclusion was "oh that's why series 1ds cost so much...")

[proenca]

Proenca - as I said, just a precautionary note. Keep the grains of salt handy when seeking info on the web. But that doesn't mean "don't ask."

 

Even the most cosmopolitan of cities can be provincial in outlook - witness the "New Yorker's view of the world" as depicted in this famous magazine cover: http://www.magazine.org/ASSETS/DB8AB50D9EAA4D1A977E2EC55E7C6378/4.jpg

 

The S2 is probably not even aimed at a niche - more like the "crevice" between "35mm" and "MF".

 

True true... I dont keep grains of salt when reading stuff on the web.

 

Just a truckload or two.

 

And thanks for the NY picture : made me have a great laugh.

 

 

 

Sure, this is a narrow target ... that's nothing new for Leica who has always appealed to a smaller target group of photographers.

-Marc

 

LOL, spot on on Marc !

 

 

 

Honestly for me it all comes down to the grip and if it is comfortable, which both of them fit me well except the bottom of the S2 grip got pretty wide at the bottom which bugged me since i have smaller hands and I have arthritis so hard to judge by me and my feel of them when it comes to the hands end. BTW I wish we had a Hassy at the time but they also do feel nice in your hands. Really depends on what you like, no one can tell you one is better than the other. It's all about YOU

 

Guy, thanks for the pictures and your invaluable contribution to this thread. It was great to see head to head pictures and it was indeed a shame not to see a H series camera there as well. And honestly , I was surprised to see how big the S2 was vs the PhaseOne camera : I was under the impression that was quite smaller with a lens - and its not, its roughly the same size.

 

 

 

 

Hi Vieri, I am very well thank you.. nice to hear from you!

 

As you say, including batteries we're about even so there must be some other reason why the S2 kit feels better for this sort of work and it comes down to three things:

 

1) The mirror and shutter are a lot nicer and require less in the way of tripod/head combination. I cannot stress this enough. The AFDIII body, when fired, is like holding a car while someone slams the door and the Phamy shutter lag is, well, not to my taste (and yes I have tried the new body and yes it is a bit better! In fact I have one on order...)

 

2) The S2 battery lasts forever so no need to carry two camera batteries and three sets of Li-ion AA's when on walkabout. Also no need when travelling to carry the bulky Phase charger, a 4 batt Li-ion charger and a two batt Li-ion charger. Just a dinky wall plug with a thin cord. Bliss.

 

3) The camera feels, to me (and I totally agree with Guy's comments about personal taste here) like something designed to be used in the hand rather than on a tripod.

 

I also just find the shape and weight distribution of the S2 to be much nicer to walk around with...

 

These Phase systems are really really good, don't get me wrong. I still have mine... for now ;-)

 

Now that makes sense ! Thanks for sharing ! And the comment about the viewfinder also is nice to know, I love bright, crisp viewfinders and that can make a love or hate in a camera... reminds me when I pick up my D2h after using my Leica M8/MP : I just find it horrible ( although its a great DSLR VF but the Leicas... )

[Vieri]

I think there's no rush, whatsoever, and from what I saw you're doing a really nice job with your Phase kit!

 

Thanks Tim, let's say we are getting to know each other, slowly

 

I have to say though that when I got a pre-production 'new' Phase body to try for a day's studio shoot last fall, my heart fell to find that the AAs were still there and that though the shutter/mirror and the lag were a bit better, they were only a bit better... I wonder if the old body has less lag when used with a P40+ or 65+ because the Dalsa sensors need no wake up? Hmm..

 

I think the Dalsa might offer better lag performance - that, and the Sensor + thingy, might make the DF solution enough for me to make me give up the D3 for concert jobs; but that is still a very long way out. So far, with the 645 AF body, the lag is so much that when I use the camera with studio strobes, I use the shutter sound as a warning for the customers - like a audible pre-flash!! may be that is why the lag is there, an extra feature? LOL

 

My pet hate, I really mean hate here, was that even when you pre-focus the lens in MF mode, the Phase body still makes an 'I'm trying to focus' whine, about half a second it feels like, when you press the shutter before it takes the shot. GET ON WITH IT YOU MOFO I screamed, many a time, as the alien spacecraft/rare bird/gorgeous light hovered then moved out of shot just as the shutter eventually fired...

 

I didn't notice this; however, I use the back AF-ON solution (an habit I am too used to with my Nikon bodies), so the shutter is disconnected from focussing - even in MF - and this is why, probably, I don't get the "pre-shot shutter whine". Did you try switching to back AF-ON? It might increase your rate of alien spacecraft pictures!

 

I found myself wondering yesterday if I would better have invested the new cash in an upgrade to P65+ and then I opened C1 to find a file I needed that had been shot on a Cambo with Schneider and LCC and somehow the software has lost the LCC file and the image has a cast... these irritations are the cost, I know, of ultimate IQ but... GRRRR!!!!

 

I still haven't had that particular experience as well - not that I am looking forward to it, actually - but I surely see your frustration! I hope the S2 will be the one for you, and that Leica will start rolling out lenses at a decent pace... otherwise, I fear the whole S2 concept will have a very hard time in keeping alive.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I count myself as one of these photographers. Not that I need any of this but for what I do, assuming a long lens becomes available, the S2 hits 99% of my want list with very few surplus features and the missing 1% isn't critical.

 

I'm sort of in the same category Doug. My whole work focus has changed dramatically in the past 1.5 years with less commercial studio work and more people work on location. Right now, the S2 would better fit that scenario than what I already own ... assuming the 35mm ever becomes available.

 

Not that I need any of it either ... an upgrade of my current MFD system would be less than just the S2 body ... and I already have all the lenses I need. Were I starting out fresh in MFD, the S2 would be a real contender.

 

-Marc

[tashley]

I'm sort of in the same category Doug. My whole work focus has changed dramatically in the past 1.5 years with less commercial studio work and more people work on location. Right now, the S2 would better fit that scenario than what I already own ... assuming the 35mm ever becomes available.

 

Not that I need any of it either ... an upgrade of my current MFD system would be less than just the S2 body ... and I already have all the lenses I need. Were I starting out fresh in MFD, the S2 would be a real contender.

 

-Marc

 

I've spoken extensively with the Solms people and I will personally buy you a large and very good steak dinner if the 35mm lens fails to appear. I would never have purchased the system unless I felt very, very reassured on this. I also fully expect, but a little later, the 24mm and the short tele/macro, as well as some form of T/S solution. Another thing worth bearing in mind is that someone, somewhere, will make an adaptor for 645 and probably other MF glass and some of it, like the Phamy 28D, that is less than wonderful on the larger sensors will almost certainly be great on the S2... I am personally really looking forward to using some of my existing glass for niche jobs. Sorry, crevice jobs.

 

Funny how quickly a crevice can widen to a crevasse.

[J_Miller]

It is my understanding there are after-market adapters presently in the works allowing the use of Hasselblad C-Series, Hasseblad F-Series, as well as Mamiya 645 series lenses on the S2 body.

 

I have heard NOVOFLEX named on more than one occasion when discussing the potential for adapting lenses with various Leica representatives here in the US. Considering NOVOFLEX's reputation for making stellar, cross-format lens adapters, I would expect this to be a nice accessory for the S2.

 

As an aside, I have confirmed, the S2 will operate properly in both Manual and Aperture Priority modes, without an S-series lens attached to the camera. In addition, the focus confirmation inside the viewfinder functions with the use of 'other' lenses. These findings were taken in the last few days, while working directly with several 'full production' Leica S2's

 

Regards,

 

J

 

...Another thing worth bearing in mind is that someone, somewhere, will make an adaptor for 645 and probably other MF glass and some of it, like the Phamy 28D, that is less than wonderful on the larger sensors will almost certainly be great on the S2... I am personally really looking forward to using some of my existing glass for niche jobs. Sorry, crevice jobs.

 

Funny how quickly a crevice can widen to a crevasse.

[tashley]

It is my understanding there are after-market adapters presently in the works allowing the use of Hasselblad C-Series, Hasseblad F-Series, as well as Mamiya 645 series lenses on the S2 body.

 

I have heard NOVOFLEX named on more than one occasion when discussing the potential for adapting lenses with various Leica representatives here in the US. Considering NOVOFLEX's reputation for making stellar, cross-format lens adapters, I would expect this to be a nice accessory for the S2.

 

As an aside, I have confirmed, the S2 will operate properly in both Manual and Aperture Priority modes, without an S-series lens attached to the camera. In addition, the focus confirmation inside the viewfinder functions with the use of 'other' lenses. These findings were taken in the last few days, while working directly with several 'full production' Leica S2's

 

Regards,

 

J

 

 

Now that's what I call a first post. Astonishingly useful. Please stick around J!

 

Best

 

Tim

[wildlightphoto]

... I have confirmed, the S2 will operate properly in both Manual and Aperture Priority modes, without an S-series lens attached to the camera. In addition, the focus confirmation inside the viewfinder functions with the use of 'other' lenses. These findings were taken in the last few days, while working directly with several 'full production' Leica S2's

 

OUTSTANDING!!

 

The f/6.8 Telyts will cover 645. Time to look into an adapter/conversion. And Novoflex used to make a follow-focus 400mm unit for medium-format cameras. This is sounding better all the time.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Doug,

 

Why is it I suddenly visualize you with a novoflex shoulder stock 400mm mounted S2 in the rain.?

 

.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What lens was put on the S2 to test that to start with and what adapter. Show me

 

BTW I can use V lenses with a adapter for the Phase body as well with focus confirmation, this is really nothing new. But the real question is this can and will there be a adapter to use a S2 lens on a Phase or Hassy.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dfarkas]

BTW I can use V lenses with a adapter for the Phase body as well with focus confirmation, this is really nothing new. But the real question is this can and will there be a adapter to use a S2 lens on a Phase or Hassy.

 

I too have heard rumblings of adapters for the S2, specifically for Hassy V lenses.

 

But, there is no way to use S lenses on a non-S body. The S lenses use an electronically-controlled aperture.

 

David