The feeling of the M9 vs the M8u

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Jaapv the idea of using a fixed colour temp came from Brett. The workflow I use is frankly one I invented (self taught) after reading the basics from Martin Evening's excellent books on how to use Lightroom and Photoshop.

 

I agre that pressing auto colour balance is odd if I left it at that...I do not. I use the auto colour to provide a feeling of what the balance is looks like. I then do auto white balance if needed as a second dimension of check.....I then fix the image in the direction that seems to make sense for the batch.

 

Jaapv I would be interested to know how you do it ...especially since you feel my approach makes no sense. Being self taught I can only learn. Thanks

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[Rolo]

That is true. But if you then hit "auto" in the RAW converter?

 

Jaap, I didn't misunderstand you, but was responding to an earlier post, but using your "sense" opening.

 

Seemed to me that the use of manual white balance was being questioned, by Andy in fact.

[andybarton]

Seemed to me that the use of manual white balance was being questioned, by Andy in fact.

 

I would never question manual white balance, in fact. Not sure that it can be batched though. That was the point I was failing to make.

[Rolo]

I would never question manual white balance, in fact. Not sure that it can be batched though. That was the point I was failing to make.

 

Andy, Whole point of doing it is because it can be batched for a given lighting condition. It's AWB that can be all over the place and can't be batched automatically as it's subject dependant.

[jaapv]

Actually, it is what you must do, besides locking exposure, when doing panoramas.

[andybarton]

Andy, Whole point of doing it is because it can be batched for a given lighting condition. It's AWB that can be all over the place and can't be batched automatically as it's subject dependant.

 

Maybe I've been missing a trick all these years.

 

Much depends upon how consistent your subject and lighting is, though. I don't ever do studio work, so have no control over the lighting, and you know the sort of snaps that I do. The light is changing all the time.

 

I used to find with the DMR, however, that the best colour was produced when taking a white balance shot from a sheet of white paper. Now with the Nikon, the AWB is significantly better than the DMR ever was, and I don't need to think about it so much.

[Rolo]

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Maybe I've been missing a trick all these years.

Much depends upon how consistent your subject and lighting is, though. I don't ever do studio work, so have no control over the lighting, and you know the sort of snaps that I do. The light is changing all the time.

 

Well AWB will get you through, just as auto exposure will and it's pretty good nowadays, so if you're happy to stick with it, do so.

 

The studio comment indicates that you're still not 100% with it though. It's just as relevant outside where the volume of light is changing all the time, but the colour temperature isn't, usually and if it does, the next group of shots can be batch adjusted.

 

It's a big time saver compared to checking/adjusting each AWB shot depending upon the picture content.

 

Manual WB is the same as film.

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I used to find with the DMR, however, that the best colour was produced when taking a white balance shot from a sheet of white paper. Now with the Nikon, the AWB is significantly better than the DMR ever was, and I don't need to think about it so much.

 

This raises in my mind some nasty questions:

1. Has Leica M8 and M9 achieved better results than a rather old Leica DMR and today's Nikon with respect to "auto white balance"?
   
2. The M9 uses the same DSP tecnology as M8 albeit with significantly larger buffer memory due to the much much larger file sizes. However we have seen reports that process time is not good etc.
   
3. Is it likely that if Leica adopt the S2 Maestro chip set that we can anticipate auto white balance that is much superior than M9 and current Nikon?
   

[Rolo]

This raises in my mind some nasty questions:

1. Has Leica M8 and M9 achieved better results than a rather old Leica DMR and today's Nikon with respect to "auto white balance"?
   
2. The M9 uses the same DSP tecnology as M8 albeit with significantly larger buffer memory due to the much much larger file sizes. However we have seen reports that process time is not good etc.
   
3. Is it likely that if Leica adopt the S2 Maestro chip set that we can anticipate auto white balance that is much superior than M9 and current Nikon?
   

1. Yes

2. Good enough for your needs, I'm sure.

3. Not enough to make a difference.

[Guest BigSplash]

I asked: Is it likely that if Leica adopt the S2 Maestro chip set that we can anticipate auto white balance that is much superior than M9 and current Nikon?

You say: Not enough to make a difference.

 

 

So if that is true:

1. Why did Stefan make such a thing about the reason that they did not use the Maestro in the M9. He acknowledged that the emphasis was getting the M9 to market by 09/09/09?
   
2. Why is the Maestro chip set seen as such a big deal for the S2, and many observers see this chip set going into a M10.
   
3. Why is the current DSP performance seen by some observers as slow and a compromise.
   

If you are correct we can expect little improvement in an eventual M10 I guess with respect to white balance? What about the other things that the Maestro chip set does such as JPEG conversion and corrections for Corner fix, Vignetting, Colour balance etc. Will that also be the same in your opinion?

[andybarton]

You specifically asked about White Balance and Rolo responded.

 

The Maestro chip will have other advantages I am sure, but it could be that white balance is not _significantly_ improved. In the longer term, that I doubt, as it will at least be another year or two before it reaches the M sector, by which time lots of work will have to have been done on firmware for the M10 version of the Maestro chip.

 

Getting worried about such things now, does seem a little odd, given that it's a long time before any such camera is going to come to market.

[jaapv]

So if that is true:

1. Why did Stefan make such a thing about the reason that they did not use the Maestro in the M9. He acknowledged that the emphasis was getting the M9 to market by 09/09/09?
   

1. Because the Maestro technology is Leica's jumping-off point for the future.
   

2.Why is the Maestro chip set seen as such a big deal for the S2, and many observers see this chip set going into a M10.

Because it is a magnitude faster and allows multitasking The S2 has considerably higher demands for digital processing than the M9, if only because of the amount of data and autofocus.

3.Why is the current DSP performance seen by some observers as slow and a compromise.

See 2. It would speed an M camera up and allow more overhead for programming.

 

Is there some way to get this thread back to its real content?

[stunsworth]

Given that Frank claims that he used to be the CEO of an international chip manufacturer I find it impossible to believe that he is so ignorant regarding the Maestro chip. We are having our chains pulled.

[Guest BigSplash]

You specifically asked about White Balance and Rolo responded.

 

The Maestro chip will have other advantages I am sure, but it could be that white balance is not _significantly_ improved. In the longer term, that I doubt, as it will at least be another year or two before it reaches the M sector, by which time lots of work will have to have been done on firmware for the M10 version of the Maestro chip.

 

Getting worried about such things now, does seem a little odd, given that it's a long time before any such camera is going to come to market.

 

Andy you are correct I was focussed on white balance. However for me the Meastro is the holy grail and should blow the socks off the current DSP M9 solution in ALL respects.....otherwise why did they develop it for the S2?

 

Andy do you know that M10 is a long way off. I am reluctant to start a rumour but you will have seen that separately in a thread US dealers have indicated that M10 may be shipping before Solms clears the growing M9 backlog. That however maybe just an off the cuff remark driven by the frustration of limited M9 supplies from Solms.

 

In my view Leica will want something at the end of this year to keep their current high production volume levels. It also would give about 18 months for the design team to develop the next generation .....including Maestro plus firmware fixes. Comments?

[stunsworth]

Andy do you know that M10 is a long way off. I am reluctant to start a rumour but you will have seen that separately in a thread US dealers have indicated that M10 may be shipping before Solms clears the growing M9 backlog.

 

Comments?

 

I doubt that any dealer will know the release date of the M10.

 

The thread you mention was written by someone phoning several dealers, but I can't remember if the dealer in question was in the UK or the US. The comment about the M10 sounds more like a dealer expressing his frustration at slow shipments rather than a statement of fact. Much as if you were on a delayed train you might say "at this rate we'll still be here at Christmas ".

[andybarton]

I thought you were an avid reader of LFI, Frank? They have had lots of articles about the Maestro chip and how it works in the S2. It was always intended to trickle down to other products as part of project Afrika - but then you know all this. There are very good reasons indeed why it didn't go into the M9, as you also know.

 

If you believe that remark about the M10 being delivered before the M9 backlog is cleared, you must be in need of some serious R&R. The use of the "common sense" part of the brain is an absolute requirement when reading anything on the internet.

 

As for Leica getting involved in the 18 month product cycle - what the hell is THAT going to do to the used values of M8s, M9s and so on? The forum will be swamped with complaints from existing owenrs who are concerned about "their investment". It's happening already with the M8 trade-in prices being offered.

 

Why not let them get the product right, rather than move to a fairly rigid upgrade timetable? I CAN see a-la-carte M9s coming for the end of this year, but I wouldn't put any money (not even any of yours) on an M10 in 2011. I have been both wrong and right in the past, so it could even come along before Easter.

 

Sometimes I really do wonder about you, Frank.

[Rolo]

Given that Frank claims that he used to be the CEO of an international chip manufacturer I find it impossible to believe that he is so ignorant regarding the Maestro chip. We are having our chains pulled.

 

Steve, there are chips .... and chips !!

 

I always find discussions with Frank as though talking to a small boy about the top speed of a Jag .... yeh, but ....... what if it was nuclear ........ what if it had the faster tyres on......

 

IOW, can't ride a bike, but needs to know the ins and outs of rocket development.

 

We've seen one of his images, and no disrespect here, but he's not pushing the M8 envelope, is he ? Processing time will NEVER be an issue for him in practice. Leica AWB will never cause him a problem. Never illustrates his issues, because they are not real.

 

Can't imagine many 'photographers' being overly concerned with what might come, one day..... if ....... IMO, just a different kind of Troll from the usual, who is only interested in diverting discussions away from the thread title.

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[rob_x2004]

Its kinda like the grand solar system debates. If you didnt it would be the sound of one hand clapping in the forest.

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Hallo,

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[yanidel]

Isnt't AWB independant from the chip ?

I mean the chip will provide computing power but I would think that the important part of getting AWB right is the programming of algorythms able to recognize accurately light conditions and translate them into a color scheme ? Of course a faster chip will help but I guess any processor is now fast enough for that.

[Guest BigSplash]

.

We've seen one of his images, and no disrespect here, but he's not pushing the M8 envelope, is he ? Processing time will NEVER be an issue for him in practice. Leica AWB will never cause him a problem. Never illustrates his issues, because they are not real.

.

 

Steve for clarity I have never claimed that I was the CEO at Texas Instruments..I was the European Technical Director plus had responsibility for all of the key european accounts. I believe that I can claim therefore to know a little about DSP's and the DLP also...I even have some knowledge of Fujitsu's ASIC which is used for the Maestro....I find it therefore somewhat offensive to suggest that I am pulling your chain.

 

Rolo I guess that you are referring to my image of the olive trees that won the local competition that I recently posted. For that image I fully agree that processing speed was not an issue....I did not use continuous mode even.

 

In my case I frequently take pictures of people where I do use continuous mode and belt off several shots and here my experience is that after a few shots the M8 camera stalls. I believe that the M9 is worse due to large RAW file sizes. Is it not the case that it is this type of photography that pushes the limits?

 

I mostly photograph people and enjoy in particular those that are with a slowish shutter speed to capture movement. I have had white balance issues that maybe due to me rather than the camera.....

Rolo maybe you can help me to understand why AWB or indeed other things done by the DSP rather than Maestro chip set will NEVER be an issue for me.

 

Why do you see me as a small boy talking about the speed of jags, and then say "no disrespect here?"

 

I wish to push the boundaries and myself photographically. I also have never blamed my Leica tools and it is indeed gratifying to hear by implication that the M8 will do all I shall ever need.

 

You asked for an illustration of the issues I have seen and suggest that they are not real.

 

An example below is a photo I have taken with a Noctilux that shows movement, and has been manually white balance adjusted in the camera. This was one of a sequence of shots using available light (Harvey Nicholls Restaurant) where the camera stalled after just a few RAW images....is that a case of "Never say Never" or what? Did I do something wrong?

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