OK, can't afford M8. What about D3?

[Jean LeBlanc]

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bokeh is of course more of an issue, but in balance DoF isnt, you work with what you have. and on that.... the available DoF when matched to full frame sees the FF shooting at significantly higher iso to reach the depth. in that sense the four thirds is well displaced, tho you will never hear the canon crowd quote that view, its just not to their advantage

 

There are currently two full frame Canon DSLRs, 5D and 1DsMKII. Either one will produce lower noise and more highly detailed images at the higher ISOs required for the same DOF as is available from the 4/3 cameras to date. So I think it's fair to say that the advantage is with Canon.

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[Riley]

There are currently two full frame Canon DSLRs, 5D and 1DsMKII. Either one will produce lower noise and more highly detailed images at the higher ISOs required for the same DOF as is available from the 4/3 cameras to date. So I think it's fair to say that the advantage is with Canon.

 

hi Jean

i figure the best of the Oly's can manage 800iso without difficulty

and that would compare with a canon at 3200 iso, i think thats a fair assesment

 

in circumstances of lower light, without flash support, which would be common to wedding photographers in some venues; or shooting real estate interiors... where in focus foreground and background is a requirement not an option

 

its pretty easy to see the canon needing to move a stop or two higher iso to get the same DoF. And particularly given the behaviour of canon wides being more disposed to softer edges. So to quote myself "in that sense the four thirds is well displaced," is a reasonable take on the issue.

 

edit to add: just to note we are comparing an expensive pro quality camera with the more lowly regarded four thirds, if the pro camera cant manage it, well perhaps it dam well should

[Jean LeBlanc]

Suggest you open up two browser windows and compare side by side the noise/detail images in dpreview's tests of the various Olympus 4/3 camewras to the 5D and 1DsMKII. For detail, the 5D has a good four stop advantage over the Olys and three stops for noise.

 

I don't have an Olympus to play with but I do have a 5D. I see lots of low ISO shots from the Olympus cameras on the web and a severe shortage of high ISO shots by folks showing us how good their 4/3 cameras are.

 

Don't get me wrong, at low ISOs they look to be extremely nice cameras. So if you're a dedicated Provia F shooter they make a nice way to go digital. But just as with half-frame film, it's hard to take them seriously for shooting at anything over ISO 400 if you want some print sizing options.

[Riley]

four stops is fantasy land in anyones language

ive seen images from E1 at 1600 iso that look clean and well detailed

its just not an event they can pull off every time

E1 certainly good for 800iso without question

so unless you are claiming 12,800 iso from your 5d, you need to rethink the issue

 

add to that

the CMOS will always suffer for detail for by its very nature, it has a much lower fill factor

[fboyd]

In response to the original question, What about D3, I would like to address some comments. I think there are a lot of wrong assumptions and ideas about the D3.

 

First of all just because it says Leica does not mean that it is a rangefinder or should be. I agree that the D3 and Pany L1 or larger than a RF but this is an Interchangeble Lens DSLR. There is no Comparison with this camera and a D2 either. I owned a D2 and I really liked it, but it was very limiting. It was not for professional use, or most of the things that I do.

 

When compared to other DSLR's the D3 is quite compact actually.

 

D3 size

Weight (inc. batteries) 606 g (21.4 oz)

Dimensions 146 x 87 x 77 mm (5.8 x 3.4 x 3 in)

 

D2 size

Weight (inc. batteries) 705 g (24.9 oz)

Dimensions 135 x 82 x 103 mm (5.3 x 3.2 x 4.1 in)

 

M8 size

Weight (inc. batteries) 591 g (20.8 oz)

Dimensions 139 x 80 x 37 mm (5.5 x 3.2 x 1.5 in)

 

What the actual specs show is that the D3 is .06 oz heavier than the M8 & actually lighter than the D2. Yes, I know that the D3 specs are without a lens and yes it is twice as deep as the M8 but that does not make it HEAVY or a big monster. And compared to the camera I use to use a Canon 1D it is very light.

 

Canon 1D2

Weight (inc. batteries) 1565 g (55.2 oz)

Dimensions 156 x 158 x 80 mm (6.1 x 6.2 x 3.2 in)

 

Also the D3 and L1 and the 4/3 system can allow me to shot images that I could not do using any other camera system. I show examples of this in the attached images.

 

The ballet shots were shot using Oly Lens. Both the 35-100 2.0 & 150mm 2.0 at 800 ISO.

Most people do not realize that the Oly lens and all 4/3 lens have an inherent Image Stabalization of at least one Stop. Because since the 150mm lens is just that, a 150mm lens the safe hand held speed is around 1/160 sec. but since the Actual focal length is 300mm via the cropping factor of the sensor, then the i DONT HAVE TO shot at 1/300th sec. I could NEVER hand hold a Canon 300 2.8 lens to shot these shots, it is ust too big.

 

I could not also shot the wide angle shots that I attached because there is no other 14mm wide for digital and nothing is this distortion free.

 

All of these images were for ASSIGNMENTS and I will not risk the quality that I give a paying client and the 4/3 images have not let me down yet.

 

And I love the Bokeh in the lens, yes you can get great seperation, because of the 2.0 apeture in the lens.

 

And you the price of a Pany L1 is at least $1,100 cheaper if cost is a concern.

 

BTW, I in the last two months I purchased a L1 w. lens, a Oly E-1 w. Grip, the 7-14mm, 35-100mm 2.0, 150mm 2.0, and FL-50 flash for the price of the M8 and the new Leica Tri Lens.

 

So in my humble opinion, we should stop comparing apples to oranges or D3's to M8's or D2's and realize that there is another great imaging tool if someone wants to use it. Just depends on what you need to do with a camera.

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[Guest stnami]

What the actual specs show is that the D3 is .06 oz heavier than the M8 & actually lighter than the D2. Yes, I know that the D3 specs are without a lens and yes it is twice as deep as the M8 but that does not make it HEAVY or a big monster. And compared to the camera I use to use a Canon 1D it is very light.

..... well thought out?.... takes the cake in the meaningless department, pick your own prize

 

,, used a Oly for years fantastic results but the system is bogged down at 400iso and it ain't progressing so until it sorts that out it was goodbye, ...

[Jean LeBlanc]

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four stops is fantasy land in anyones language

ive seen images from E1 at 1600 iso that look clean and well detailed

its just not an event they can pull off every time

E1 certainly good for 800iso without question

so unless you are claiming 12,800 iso from your 5d, you need to rethink the issue

 

add to that

the CMOS will always suffer for detail for by its very nature, it has a much lower fill factor

 

Sure, downrezzing will work wonders.

And now, back to fantasyland.

 

Thanks!

[MJLogan]

add to that the CMOS will always suffer for detail for by its very nature, it has a much lower fill factor

 

The D3/L1's "LiveMOS" sensor is alleged to have a CCD-like fill factor due to redesign of control wires. Not being an engineer, I can't elaborate on Panasonic's PR statements. I'm sure someone else can...

[KevinA]

FYI: The current 4/3 sensors are generally 17.8 x 13.4 mm. The M8 has a sensor that 27 x 18 mm with 6.8 x 6.8 size pixels. The D3 has 17.3 x 13 with 5.6 x 5.6 pixels. 4/3 refers to the proportions of the sensor, not the size. 4/3 makes better use of the entire image circle of a lens.

 

Yes and then again no, 4/3rds is the ratio but also the 4/3rds system is supposed to be a standard size. Olympus sold 4/3rds system on size and lens mount design.

The D3 is a monster for a compact camera and there's only 8mp's, it looks like a nice camera, but it's not a take anywhere with you camera, the M8 wins there hands down. When you look at the size of 400D's and there like the D3 looks even bigger.

It looks like it will be a struggle to provide a convicing argument for someone new to buy into the system. But what'd I know.

 

Kevin.

[NickR]

Not sure what people want this camera to be. I'd say look on the Olympus site at how they're selling this system. Sure, you could put one of the Oly small fixed prime lenses on it and make it readily portable but the system is really aimed at people used to carrying around large digital AF zooms -not your typical Leica user. It seems to me that the D3 sells better as a smaller/cheaper alternative to a DMR. Let's go shoot some birds!

[disconnekt]

Wow, I'm amazed by all the replies to my original post! Thanks to everyone for their input. I am aware, of course, that the DSLR experience is nothing like that of a RF.Someone suggested I try out a Leica film camera, but not only would that still be out of my budget (with the lens), I also haven't shot film in years and don't want to go back. Despite how much I love the look of film, I'm too addicted to the instant satisfaction of digital.

 

I must admit that despite all the comments about the D3/L1 here, I still can't decide if it's the best DSLR for me. What I really want is excellent image quality with as little noise as possible at higher ISOs (I *hate* shooting with flash but do a lot of indoors so I need speed) and I would also like to be able to use wide apertures to get a DOF similar to that of my old Nikon FM2 w/ 50 mm 1.4 lens (I almost always shot with the lens wide open). Olympuses and Canons have been mentioned in this thread too, but not Nikon (for example the D80). I hate to take this so off topic, but can anyone advise me which DSLR under $1500 would give me what I'm looking for?

Thanks!

-alison

[disconnekt]

P.S. I forgot to say that I did consider the R-D1 but it still costs upwards of $2K just for the body, so it's out of my budget too!

[dugby]

Alison, having just gone thru this same exercise that you have just started, may I suggest:

1) have a look at the "Buyers Guide" on deepee-review-dot-com

2) you'll determine that a D30 or E400 pop up as alternatives,

 

After weighing all the facts about OIS and non-OIS, RED dot versus no RED dot, there is a very compelling case for an L1.

 

I've just gone from a D2, to an L1

 

I have an unreliable D2, and a desire to skip the D3, and I had money ready to buy an M8 plus lenses. But with a long trip to Tokyo/Paris/London, starting tomorrow, and a 'questionable' situation for Australian M8 buyers.....I bought the L1.

 

Having played with the L1 now for 2 weeks, I have learnt to use it 'nearly' properly, it does takes a few weeks, despite my 35 years of SLR (and RF) experience.

 

It captures many shots I regularly missed with my D2, it is so much faster to do anything over the D2. It's high ISO ability is fantastic at 400/800.

 

I'm now starting to get that Leica GLOW in my shots, that initially I was not getting like in my D2.

 

 

Hints for D3/L1 first time users....or in-shop test-drivers

 

1) switch off Auto-zones setting for AF and chose "central" only

2) Chose a customised "My FILM 1" profile and turn Noise Reduction to lowest

3) Set sharpness to highest

4) OIS to mode (2)

5) Image Quality to least compression

6) Image size to L

 

After you have done this.......the Magic of the Leica lens comes to life.

 

PS that Black body on the L1 is .....oh so much sexier than that of the 'bling-bling' chrome of my D2.

[MJLogan]

Hints for D3/L1 first time users....or in-shop test-drivers

 

1) switch off Auto-zones setting for AF and chose "central" only

2) Chose a customised "My FILM 1" profile and turn Noise Reduction to lowest

3) Set sharpness to highest

4) OIS to mode (2)

5) Image Quality to least compression

6) Image size to L

 

After you have done this.......the Magic of the Leica lens comes to life.

 

That's exactly my "My Film 1" profile! I wonder why the D3/L1 ships with default settings that are bound to disappoint most users? Once I switched to the same settings you suggest, I fell in love with the camera.

[robert_parker]

Interesting .... OIS mode 2 seems to be the most effective on DL 3 and C Lux as well

[disconnekt]

I'm confused about the sensor crop factor that people are talking about. Someone said only the Canons have a full 35mm film sized sensor, does this affect DOF?

 

And for those that have gome from D2 to D3/L1, how do the images compare?

[Riley]

full frame 36 x 24mm cameras are Canon EOS 1DS, Canon EOS 1DS MkII, Canon EOS 5D,

Kodak DCS Pro 14n, Kodak Pro SLRn, as you can see they are rare

 

the rest of the dSLR world has varying reductions to full frame, even Canons

crop factors for all dSLRs of 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, and 2 x exist

this affects the portion of the image circle used, given by the lens, and the mechanical and optical properties of the chosen lens

 

yes it affects the DoF

FF can access a more limited DoF, that relieves the subject from the background

commonly in bokeh, and used in portrait photography

 

alternately, cropped sensor cameras have greater DoF

it is the easier to have foreground, subject, and background in focus

 

The D2 has a 2/3" sensor, much smaller than the four thirds sensor on D3 and L1

the D2 IQ was really so good, as it compares very well with the D3 kit lens

 

the data below was never checked for accuracy but its roughly correct

D2 would equal the Panasonic LC1, D3 and L1 any of the four thirds sensors

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[disconnekt]

Riley, thanks for the info!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[BKPhotog]

Also a D2 shooter, seriously considering adding a D3. My concern is Leica's use of the term "basic", in describing this system. How long before it's likely to be obsoleted (like the D2)?

 

Recently played with the D3 at the Photo Expo in NYC. Leica staffer essentially didn't want to discuss my D2, other than to tell me that it's obsolete. For a company that's so very steeped in "classics", I was somewhat unpleasantly surprised by this reaction.

[othlsj]

HI

Does any one know if any of my M or R lenses can be used on the D3 with an appropriate adapter if there is one ?

 

Am hesitating on the M8 partly because of the costs and more because the bugs have yet to be sorted out.

 

Thanks

ONG Teong Hoon