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The limits of M5 (and other) lens choice in millimeters behind the bayonet

Finnkare

By Finnkare
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Finnkare

Finnkare

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If there's also others struggling with M5 lens choices, thinking about the deeply recessing lens elements or collapsing lenses, wouldn't it be nice to post measurements of, say, the distance between the flat part of the bayonet and the end of the lens? I mean lenses which just fit or just don't fit; I don't think the "easy" ones are so important here. This would help judging whether some strangeish lens will fit or not, before mounting and risking to break something.

 

CL (or M6 or whatever troublesome body) people can join too!

 

PS. I am aware of Stephen Gandy's list, but it's a bit shattered and I don't think it is and will stay exhaustive. For example, it doesn't include almost any screw mount lenses.

 

I don't have any close calls (I think), but as a second hand knowledge I can say that the Canon 19 mm LTM lens' distance is 19 millimeters and it will not fit into the M5. I don't know about other bodies.

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doubice

doubice

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A list of non-collapsible LTM or M mount lenses that do not fit into an M5 or CL (with the meter arm up) is quite short:

  • Canon 3.5/19mm
  • Super Angulon 4/21mm
  • Super Angulon 3.4/21mm
  • Elmarit 2.8/28mm (first version only)

As to collapsible Leica lenses - as James mentions, simply do not collapse them or, have the lens' mount modified not to raise the meter arm if the collapsibility is more important than metering.

 

None of the Leica collapsible 50mm lenses can be collapsed into the M5 or CL, it is as simple as that.

 

Best,

 

Jan

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jpattison

jpattison

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I used to use the R 21mm f3.4 with the R to M converter on my M5, and a spirit level on top, guessing the image area! I cut out a notch in the rear of the converter so as to disengage the lifting of the meter arm. This is what Leica did to "modify" lenses to fit the M5. Using screw lenses, you can easily cut the notch in the adapter ring. Then you can collapse the lens. Use a hand held meter, or put an MR4 on top!

The original body cover should have this notch, as it is recommended as the only cover to use. (keeps the meter arm down)

The alternate with collapsible lenses is to use Dymo tape, as recommended in the M5 instruction book.

The tape should surround the lens mount leaving a gap of 1mm. Length determined by paper template.

Elmar f3.5 50

Elmar f2.8 50

Summar f2 50

Summitar f2 50

Summicron f2 50

Elmar f4 90

All need 9.5mm wide Dymo tape

 

The Hektor f2.5 50 needs 12.7mm wide Dymo tape.

 

You can't fit the Summaron f3.5 35 with detatchable v/f, or summicon f2 50 with near focusing range, without Leica re-machining lens bayonet and v/f attachment.

Visoflex 2 cannot be used. Visoflex 1 and 3, and the bellows, are OK

 

Cheers, John

 

John

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Finnkare

Finnkare

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A list of non-collapsible LTM or M mount lenses that do not fit into an M5 or CL (with the meter arm up) is quite short:

  • Canon 3.5/19mm
  • Super Angulon 4/21mm
  • Super Angulon 3.4/21mm
  • Elmarit 2.8/28mm (first version only)

In addition, in Cameraquest there's at least the 20/5.6 Russar. For these kind of "surprises" I wanted to be sure. Actually, I was especially looking for information about the Canon 25/3.5. For example here are pictures of the 19 and 25: Canon rangefinder wideangle lenses 19mm f/3.5 & 25mm f/3.5 - Image Library

It might just be that the 25 is not too deep.

 

BTW, the SA 3.4/21 from serial number 2437251 can be used, the rest also if modified. Also the 4/21 should be modifiable.

 

None of the Leica collapsible 50mm lenses can be collapsed into the M5 or CL, it is as simple as that.

 

Yes, but I was considering also other brands. At least CV 50/2 can be collapsed. But still not the Summicron, I think.

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Finnkare

Finnkare

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You can't fit the Summaron f3.5 35 with detatchable v/f, or summicon f2 50 with near focusing range, without Leica re-machining lens bayonet and v/f attachment.

 

Hmm, that's new about the DR Summicron... (Well, actually, the rest of your message was new, this was contrary to the impression I have)

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giordano

giordano

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Fully collapsed, a 50mm f/2.8 Elmar (LTM with M adapter) protrudes about 19.2mm into the camera. Subtract 9.5mm (the width of the Dymo tape recommended) and you get about 9.7mm as the depth available without fouling the meter cell. Probably 10mm is still safe.

 

Finnkare, how about a direct measurement? Get hold of a depth gauge and measure the distance from the bayonet flange to the edge of the slot the meter cell hides in?

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Xmas

Xmas

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The J12 (FSU) in a LTM adapter would collide with the meter arm.The simplest way to judge depth if to fit a LTM adapter and use a depth gauge. you could open the back fit the lens with the shutter fired and wind on slowly but Id not be that brave.The SA that fit have the mounts altered to inhibit the meter arm swinging so you dont get any metering, ditto the 28m Elmarits, until the type II.The deep lenses won't work too well with M6 or later meters.Noel.

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jpattison

jpattison

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In his book The Leica CL, Theo Kisselbach states on page 57:

 

"In the case of the CL, lenses must not penetrate more than 16mm, measured from the lens supporting surface. In the case of the M5 it is limited to only 13mm. So if you only use the lens on a CL, the tape only has to be 6.3mm wide, or - if it is to be used also on the M5 -9.5mm"

 

Then he goes on to name lenses, I'll copy the rest out tomorrow!

 

John

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Finnkare

Finnkare

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In his book The Leica CL, Theo Kisselbach states on page 57:

 

"In the case of the CL, lenses must not penetrate more than 16mm, measured from the lens supporting surface. In the case of the M5 it is limited to only 13mm. So if you only use the lens on a CL, the tape only has to be 6.3mm wide, or - if it is to be used also on the M5 -9.5mm"

 

Then he goes on to name lenses, I'll copy the rest out tomorrow!

 

John

 

Wow, this is interesting! Thanks, the names would also be nice to know.

 

I think the Canon 25 is no problem, but I can post more precise info later.

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jpattison

jpattison

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OK, from "the CL Book"...

 

"Lenses of which the rear mount projects too deeply into the camera body are not suitable for the CL

 

Super Angulon 21mm, (but see Finnkare's reply above)

Hologon f8 15mm,

Elmarit f2.8 28mm with s/nos below 2314921.

 

Also lenses with finder attachment, such as 35mm lenses for the M3 and the Elmarit f2.8 135mm.

The summicron 90 and the other 135mm lenses can certainly be used, but only with reservations.

 

Some accessories, too, cannot be used, where the attachment dimensions fit only the Leica, as for instance optical close-up focussing attachments, slide copiers, the Reprovit I to IIa, and the Visoflex III.

 

Very suitable for still close-up work are the close-up focusing accessories. These comprise the DIN-A4, A5, and A6 equipment (16526) of the M system, and the close-up accessory for 1:1 to 1:3 (16511). Also in the screw mount system the copying gauge accessories BOOWU, BEHOO, and BELUN (-HESUM)

 

The Visoflex I can be used without reservation, the Visoflex II can certainly be used, but its manipulation is complicated and therefore not recommended"

 

here is his picture of where the dymo tape goes...

 

 

 

Theo Kisselbach "Leica CL" ISBN 0 85242 570 8 (1976 German, 1977 English)

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  • 2 weeks later...
MFB

MFB

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The part of the flange that triggers the meter arm is missing on the super angulon-ms with a serial number above 2437251. I know this has already been said, but it seems that if you have a screw mount lens with a protruding rear element (jupiter 9, etc) you could file away the part of your ltm-m adapter that triggers the meter arm.

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  • 2 weeks later...
venchka

venchka

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...or summicon f2 50 with near focusing range, without Leica re-machining lens bayonet and v/f attachment.

Visoflex 2 cannot be used. Visoflex 1 and 3, and the bellows, are OK

 

Cheers, John

 

John

 

This is how Internet myths start and then get perpetuated ad nausea. The Dual Range Summicron lens mounts and functions perfectly on both the original 2 lug and later 3 lug bodies. Remove the screw and post from the near focusing v/f attachment and Bob's your uncle. The Dual Range Summicron and M5 work very well together.

 

M5 Myth Busted!

 

ps: 12mm is the limit of lens extension inside the body without striking the meter arm. The 28mm M-Hexanon lens works on both Bigfoot v& Bubba. The rear element extends 12mm inside the body. The swing arm is approximately 13mm inside the body.

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NB23

NB23

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This is how Internet myths start and then get perpetuated ad nausea. The Dual Range Summicron lens mounts and functions perfectly on both the original 2 lug and later 3 lug bodies. Remove the screw and post from the near focusing v/f attachment and Bob's your uncle. The Dual Range Summicron and M5 work very well together.

 

M5 Myth Busted!

 

ps: 12mm is the limit of lens extension inside the body without striking the meter arm. The 28mm M-Hexanon lens works on both Bigfoot v& Bubba. The rear element extends 12mm inside the body. The swing arm is approximately 13mm inside the body.

 

bigfoot and bubba? Please, man. Please.

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Xmas

Xmas

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i) The problem with any screw mount lens is you can bayonet an adapter to M5 and screw in a lens, with a J12 this wont improve the M5 or the J12. So you have to be real careful, I gave my J12 away to any any risks, it was a nice J12. Otherwise you have to file every adapter you might use accidently.

ii) if the CL does not have an inhibitor like a M5 (as one post above implies), then none of the deep lenses can be employed. It is real easy to make a mistake.

 

Noel

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