markowich Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share #21 Posted December 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've seen 70mm samples that matched the MTFs (50% MTF @ 40lp/mm even in the corners - on par with Rodenstock HR) - "poor" corner performance might be caused by missfocus (only use real-infinitiy samples) or misscalibration of the lens -which would be a shame. But when you're not even happy with a diffraction-limited (superior performance at this aperture is impossible) f3.5 (180mm) lens and see noise everywhere you propably have to give the system back. georg, i am totally with you on this. i felt like a(n unpaid) beta tester for the M8 (two bodies), the M9 sort of worked out (i do like it...) but the S2 is a no-go. i hope leica will survive this ill fated adventure....i want an M10 after all! apparently leica felt uncomfortable to go into the DSLR 35mm market (rightly so) and concocted the S2.....but left a lot of homework undone. actually, jack&guy's test spells the beans clearly, although they decided not to go too explicit. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 29, 2009 Posted December 29, 2009 Hi markowich, Take a look here my S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
c6gowin Posted December 30, 2009 Share #22 Posted December 30, 2009 Peter, I would reserve final judgement until proper camera profiles are available for the camera and maybe another firmware tweak. It seems reasonable to expect a proper camera profile at least for vendor supplied raw converter upon the camera's release, that is not the case here. For what its worth, I seem to recall reading about some initial growing pains for the early adopters of the P65 - it took a few weeks for profiles and processing methods to get sorted out. Also, I fully expect (hope?) Leica to come out with a firmware update rather soon to address feedback from prospective buyers like me who demo'd the camera in the November and December time frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted December 30, 2009 Share #23 Posted December 30, 2009 That is easy for me to say since I haven't yet put down my money. I used LR 3 beta for processing the files I shot during the demo. One tip that Stephan Shulz gave me at PhotoPlus was to pull the LR default black value of 5 down to 2. I saw disturbing shadow noise (at base ISO) in the dark regions of files I shot at the PhotoPlus demo and questioned Stephan about it. His tip helps considerably. I haven't used C1, but David Farkas recently made a C1 profile for the S2 so it may be worth giving that a try. I can't find the link for it now, but I will be happy to email it to you if you want. I watched David process some of my demo shots in both LR3 beta and C1 on his laptop (high resolution 97% rgb gamut 17" screen) and it was interesting to see the differences. That experience opened my eyes to the need for optimized profiles and processing techniques. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 30, 2009 Share #24 Posted December 30, 2009 From our review on LR3 I did exactly that and dropped the black point immediately down. On what I posted here I actually leveled it out to zero with no clipping but my taste for sure would be 2 or 3 . I like a little snap myself and regularly clip just slightly on the shadow side on purpose. Good tip and one reason we wanted folks to play around with the raws and find out some of this on there own and there taste. Hopefully we provided a good balance of shooting to to fit what types of photography people do. I might with some time here go back in and process what I personally like. We tried to keep things as neutral as possible for better comparisons but all these files both the s2 and P40 have a ton of pushing around elbow. Just watch the sharpening on the S2 at least in C1. In C1 try pre sharpen 1 than lower it down to about 130 or so. That looked pretty good . Maybe Jack can give some more thoughts on settings , he did create a profile but that dealt with color. These are on extra images posted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 30, 2009 Share #25 Posted December 30, 2009 georg,i am totally with you on this. i felt like a(n unpaid) beta tester for the M8 (two bodies), the M9 sort of worked out (i do like it...) but the S2 is a no-go. i hope leica will survive this ill fated adventure....i want an M10 after all! apparently leica felt uncomfortable to go into the DSLR 35mm market (rightly so) and concocted the S2.....but left a lot of homework undone. actually, jack&guy's test spells the beans clearly, although they decided not to go too explicit. peter Well you have to leave some things up to the reader to decide and some things on the S2 are not set in stone either so obviously things will change with firmware and raw processing engines but frankly I am a bit surprised you bought it this early. For myself this is 6 months away to revisit but I need all the lenses out at once and having just bought a P40+ back with a upgraded DF body obviously I am in no hurry to switch either. As I have said several times and bears repeating this needs to age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted December 30, 2009 Share #26 Posted December 30, 2009 That is easy for me to say since I haven't yet put down my money. I used LR 3 beta for processing the files I shot during the demo. One tip that Stephan Shulz gave me at PhotoPlus was to pull the LR default black value of 5 down to 2. I saw disturbing shadow noise (at base ISO) in the dark regions of files I shot at the PhotoPlus demo and questioned Stephan about it. His tip helps considerably. I haven't used C1, but David Farkas recently made a C1 profile for the S2 so it may be worth giving that a try. I can't find the link for it now, but I will be happy to email it to you if you want. I watched David process some of my demo shots in both LR3 beta and C1 on his laptop (high resolution 97% rgb gamut 17" screen) and it was interesting to see the differences. That experience opened my eyes to the need for optimized profiles and processing techniques. Here's the C1 profile: LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted December 30, 2009 Share #27 Posted December 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here's the C1 profile: LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc David David, that's a windows exe file - is there just a clean .icc version? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #28 Posted December 30, 2009 Here's the C1 profile: LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc David thank you david, will try it out. but let us be clear about the fact that color profiling does not eliminate noise, it only redistributes it among the tonal value scale. i have the feeling that the S2 files are super inelastic and do not allow reasonable amounts of PPing, as do hassy and phase files. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #29 Posted December 30, 2009 Well you have to leave some things up to the reader to decide and some things on the S2 are not set in stone either so obviously things will change with firmware and raw processing engines but frankly I am a bit surprised you bought it this early. For myself this is 6 months away to revisit but I need all the lenses out at once and having just bought a P40+ back with a upgraded DF body obviously I am in no hurry to switch either. As I have said several times and bears repeating this needs to age. all d'accord. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #30 Posted December 30, 2009 That is easy for me to say since I haven't yet put down my money. I used LR 3 beta for processing the files I shot during the demo. One tip that Stephan Shulz gave me at PhotoPlus was to pull the LR default black value of 5 down to 2. I saw disturbing shadow noise (at base ISO) in the dark regions of files I shot at the PhotoPlus demo and questioned Stephan about it. His tip helps considerably. I haven't used C1, but David Farkas recently made a C1 profile for the S2 so it may be worth giving that a try. I can't find the link for it now, but I will be happy to email it to you if you want. I watched David process some of my demo shots in both LR3 beta and C1 on his laptop (high resolution 97% rgb gamut 17" screen) and it was interesting to see the differences. That experience opened my eyes to the need for optimized profiles and processing techniques. mark, schultze's trick amounts obviously to darkening the noise. what is bothersome is that at such grey levels noise is there at all. you can cover up locally but then noise will show up elsewhere. it could just be my sensor, i do not know and -honestly- do not want to bother with the S2 anymore. lost two days, enough.guy is of course right. revisit -maybe- after 6-12 months. but then it might be too late for leica's S2 concept. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 30, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 30, 2009 Well Peter you do have a complete system behind you so that greatly helps you cause. C1 right now besides a color profile, sharpening and noise algorithms has a bigger issue and that is the spectral highlights or this highlight transition area that C1 is not handling very well. LR3 handled it better. Here you can see exactly what C1 is not doing correctly today without a good profile. Also in the third image the eye is getting color artifacts. All of these needs C1 to make a correct profile to handle everything not just the color. In essence C1 is not ready for the S2 and LR3 is better right now but it still is beta and hopefully will be ready for the S2 on release. Obviously this is neither Adobe or C1 fault either just that they are not ready for prime time and in our review we clearly point that out. This is much more than just a color profile as you can see. As you can see my aging comment makes sense. If you have a S2 now than these are the issues that you will deal with until C1 get's on board and LR3 just seems a little better but it still needs some love also. Now I am not saying don't buy the S2 what i am saying is be very aware of what you are buying today, now next week or next month this can all change. Obviously doing a review we are limited by what is available at the time we did it, will it change is the real hope and get better. I think undoubtedly it will . Now just a note I processed these very fast and was going after the certain area's that are the problem area's . I did use a Profile Jack created but again they only deal with color. C1 needs to dig in deep and really profile this cam like they do with there backs. Well this happen , that I can't say but my bet is they will as they support many cams out there. My believe is C1 does not see the S2 as a competitor to there Phase backs simply because it really is a different audience. Could I be wrong in that sure can no doubt. I can't and won't speak for Phase or leica for that matter on support . Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/107957-my-s2/?do=findComment&comment=1168342'>More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 30, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 30, 2009 BTW i just added these two images to the Raw downloads File names S2_GetDpi 0102 S2_ GetDPI 0139 And they do clean up in LR3 some but coming in at 5 points black is just dead wrong, that does need to be dropped and I feel 2 points gives the files a nice balance. It still clips the shadows slightly but I like that myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted December 30, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 30, 2009 Thanks for this Guy. The whole point of dng was to make the whole RAW processing thing easier, but this clearly is not the case at the higher end of the scale. As you correctly pointed out, somebody somewhere with a lot of experience is going to have to spend a considerable amount of time and money digging very deeply into the S2 files to figure out the best algorithms for conversion. This is most definitely not just about colour. My only concern is whether the people at phase (who are clearly the masters at this) will even bother until enough S2's are in circulation to make it worth their while. I don't like C1, primarily because of the non intuitive structure of the application (it constantly confuses me), but I can clearly see their conversions (when they support a particular camera) are very good. I don't know how many months it takes to produce a high quality profile at this level, but I suspect it will be quite some months away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 30, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 30, 2009 Hard to say Marcus , I do think they are working on it now but that is rumor so don't quote me. But LR3 beta is better at these little transitions area's I pointed out but I still see some improvement needs in LR. Nothing wrong with the s2 if that is what you are after in a cam and damn I like the darn thing too but we need to be aware of the raw converters at the moment and Leica needs to attack some firmware issues as well and certainly get lenses out the door, I really mean this on the glass. I turned it down just because of not enough glass today. It's early in the process and it is just starting to hit the streets , I am sure Solms is hopping right now and they have gotten great feedback from folks and our review as well and they will get there. Patience is the key and many folks have faith in Leica to deliver and i think they will but they are squarely aiming this at the Pro and that means expedience in delivering a full system ready to tackle real jobs. We should note Tim and Peter have full MF systems in there cabinet so they can take the chance right now and let it develop knowing they have the tools in hand otherwise to handle shoots comfortable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #35 Posted December 30, 2009 Well Peter you do have a complete system behind you so that greatly helps you cause. C1 right now besides a color profile, sharpening and noise algorithms has a bigger issue and that is the spectral highlights or this highlight transition area that C1 is not handling very well. LR3 handled it better. Here you can see exactly what C1 is not doing correctly today without a good profile. Also in the third image the eye is getting color artifacts. All of these needs C1 to make a correct profile to handle everything not just the color. In essence C1 is not ready for the S2 and LR3 is better right now but it still is beta and hopefully will be ready for the S2 on release. Obviously this is neither Adobe or C1 fault either just that they are not ready for prime time and in our review we clearly point that out. This is much more than just a color profile as you can see. As you can see my aging comment makes sense. If you have a S2 now than these are the issues that you will deal with until C1 get's on board and LR3 just seems a little better but it still needs some love also. Now I am not saying don't buy the S2 what i am saying is be very aware of what you are buying today, now next week or next month this can all change. Obviously doing a review we are limited by what is available at the time we did it, will it change is the real hope and get better. I think undoubtedly it will . Now just a note I processed these very fast and was going after the certain area's that are the problem area's . I did use a Profile Jack created but again they only deal with color. C1 needs to dig in deep and really profile this cam like they do with there backs. Well this happen , that I can't say but my bet is they will as they support many cams out there. My believe is C1 does not see the S2 as a competitor to there Phase backs simply because it really is a different audience. Could I be wrong in that sure can no doubt. I can't and won't speak for Phase or leica for that matter on support . guy, the articats in the hair could also be a lens/sensor/readout issue. not sure that it is software only. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #36 Posted December 30, 2009 guy, the articats in the hair could also be a lens/sensor/readout issue. not sure that it is software only. peter sorry, of course i meant 'artifacts'. p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted December 30, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 30, 2009 David, that's a windows exe file - is there just a clean .icc version? Tim, It's an ICC file on an FTP site. Definitely not an exe. I can email you a copy if you'd prefer. David Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/107957-my-s2/?do=findComment&comment=1168746'>More sharing options...
tashley Posted December 30, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 30, 2009 Tim, It's an ICC file on an FTP site. Definitely not an exe. I can email you a copy if you'd prefer. David Thanks David - it was just that clicking on your download link in a browser in Safari on a Mac caused it to download as a .exe file so I'll strip that bit and try it without, or use FTP! Thanks! Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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