Nicoleica Posted December 18, 2009 Share #21 Posted December 18, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...but now you're on the list of people not on an M9 list. Jeff Ut-Oh! Does this mean I'll suddenly wake up in Portmeirion one day? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Hi Nicoleica, Take a look here Is Your Name on Multiple Lists?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted December 18, 2009 Share #22 Posted December 18, 2009 Ut-Oh! Does this mean I'll suddenly wake up in Portmeirion one day? Probably not, but if you want free entry to Portmeirion you can use a print off of the attached PDF until March next year. 168.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2mini Posted December 18, 2009 Share #23 Posted December 18, 2009 I have no shame in saying I'm on more than one list. I really wanted an M9 before an xmas trip to Europe so I was going to do what it took to get one, including paying in full upfront at B&H and that's who came through for me. I'm not canceling my other list yet though... not until I have my M9 in my hands and it's functioning at 100%. Oh and get this. I had placed an order with Adorama first week of november. I know that those orders are no where in site of being filled so I contacted customer service this morning to cancel. Well after a few emails back and forth with my order confirmation number... my order is apparently no where in the system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 19, 2009 Share #24 Posted December 19, 2009 I don't see this as a morality play in which those on more than one list were somehow guilty of some transgression. I think everyone was was just frustrated. Let me explain: I was on more than one list -- First ordered 9/9 from a dealer in a distant state with whom I had done business and trusted. Then a local dealer actually called me and asked me if I wanted to be on his list. I told him I had already ordered and if the first dealer could deliver I was committed to him. He said it was ok with him if I was on his list as well (but I was way down on it) and he understood that I would probably buy from the first dealer. Then a friend who has just opened a shop asked me if I wanted an M9 as he "thought" he could get one fairly quickly (he's not a Leica dealer yet but is very well positioned with lots of friends in the business). I told him too that I had already committed to the first dealer and he said he was going to try to get one anyhow -- he'd be able to sell it if I didn't take it. I ended up with the M9 from the first dealer after 10-11 weeks. (I told them all I'd take black or gray) and canceled with the others, each of whom was perfectly fine with what had happened. My take on this is the dealers themselves were dealing in their own way with the unpredictable Leica distribution system, figuring that if they could get product before someone else they might make a nice sale -- and perhaps figuring that they could get more product from Leica if they could show a longer wait list. Following the posts here, there were large Leica dealers that found themselves unable to fill many orders and who are still maintaining wait lists while there are lesser known dealers who happened to get some product and sold them essentially on a walk-in basis. So who committed the sin here? Business is business, I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggits Posted December 19, 2009 Share #25 Posted December 19, 2009 Some people must stay several placed. The 2' dec I mail to "Meister Camera" Berlin to advise me when they would have a M9 gray for shipment. He told me - that he had several on waiting list - so - but yes - he would give me a mail when M9 goes into stock. So 16' dec - I wrote : "Godmorning - any Chrismas gift M9 gray ready for me ;-) " Same afternoon - the mail came - First mail: Sorry we don't know when we have anything. We are still waiting. Second mail: YES - we just got one. Beutifull gray M9 If you want it - please pay in advance - So now I am waiting for Ups. My point - 2 weeks waiting time -Somebody jump from the list when the actually "date" came. ----------------------------------- ggits, Denmark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted December 19, 2009 Share #26 Posted December 19, 2009 I certainly don't see any ethical issue in being on multiple lists. I've bought a lot of expensive camera equipment over the years from different dealers - both local shops and B&H. When the M8 came out I was on three local lists, plus the "please notify when available" distro from B&H. After a couple months of fruitless waiting, I sat down one Saturday morning and called all the dealers within a half-day's drive. In a bit of serendipity, I found one a couple hours away at a small Leica dealer and was delighted to drive up and get it. Same thing with the M9. Despite asking my primary local dealer - one pretty big in the Leica network - to put me on his list the week before the announcement (and thus being number 2), it still took over 70 days to get my camera. Hedging my bet, I also placed myself on three other lists, along with the B&H distro. I think dealer loyalty is wonderful - as long as the dealer can get product in a reasonable period of time, one competitive with other dealers. In a free-for-all situation like major Leica releases, I'll get mine from whatever legitimate source can get it to me the earliest. I don't see anything wrong with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 19, 2009 Share #27 Posted December 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm genuinely surprised. You honestly see nothing wrong in this? How about if the dealer you spent two hours driving to had shrugged when you arrived and said "I'm sorry, I've sold it to a guy that just walked in." Would you have been upset? Surprised? Felt let down? Do you see no difference? To each their own. All I can say is I'm glad I don't have any business dealings with you. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted December 20, 2009 Share #28 Posted December 20, 2009 I'm genuinely surprised. You honestly see nothing wrong in this? How about if the dealer you spent two hours driving to had shrugged when you arrived and said "I'm sorry, I've sold it to a guy that just walked in." Would you have been upset? Surprised? Felt let down? Do you see no difference? To each their own. All I can say is I'm glad I don't have any business dealings with you. Regards, Bill Well, when I heard they had one, I asked if they would hold it for the couple hours it took to drive up there. They said they would. Had they not, I'd still have driven up, taking my chances. If they had sold it during those two hours would I have been disappointed? Sure. Would I have been upset? No. I guess I don't understand why it is perceived by some as being improper to seek a scarce product from multiple sources. I've never misrepresented myself to a dealer (suggesting I'm on his list and no other). Nor am I that bane of many retail businesses - the guy who "just wants to look." I'm a serious buyer. If you can get the product, I'll buy it from you. If you can't, well, maybe next time. The quid pro quo relationship that normally exists when a customer sale is made doesn't yet pertain when one simply puts one's name on a list. It's all potential at that point. At the end of the day, in a period of scarcity a dealer will be able to move all the stock he receives. He loses nothing when the next M9 comes in, he rings me up, and I tell him that I happened to locate one at another dealer the day before. He'll make the next guy on the list quite happy. He still gets his sale of that camera. He still gets his profit. To be clear, I would never ask a dealer to put skin in the game that he might not get back. If, once the early M9 demand is met and things go back to normal, I were to go into a dealer and ask for a Steel Grey model and he said he didn't normally stock that color, but would be happy to ring up his Leica rep and have one delivered the following week, I would certainly honor that commitment. No, I genuinely don't understand what the concern is... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagewright Posted December 20, 2009 Share #29 Posted December 20, 2009 Had my name on Adorama's list since Sept. 18. Was on BH email list and got notice on Nov. 20 that they were taking orders. Placed an order on that day and now have been notified that my gray M9 is "ready for shipping." Canceled my order with Adorama. Confirmation time was 9:18 am. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 20, 2009 Share #30 Posted December 20, 2009 Well, when I heard they had one, I asked if they would hold it for the couple hours it took to drive up there. They said they would. Had they not, I'd still have driven up, taking my chances. If they had sold it during those two hours would I have been disappointed? Sure. Would I have been upset? No. I guess I don't understand why it is perceived by some as being improper to seek a scarce product from multiple sources. I've never misrepresented myself to a dealer (suggesting I'm on his list and no other). Nor am I that bane of many retail businesses - the guy who "just wants to look." I'm a serious buyer. If you can get the product, I'll buy it from you. If you can't, well, maybe next time. The quid pro quo relationship that normally exists when a customer sale is made doesn't yet pertain when one simply puts one's name on a list. It's all potential at that point. At the end of the day, in a period of scarcity a dealer will be able to move all the stock he receives. He loses nothing when the next M9 comes in, he rings me up, and I tell him that I happened to locate one at another dealer the day before. He'll make the next guy on the list quite happy. He still gets his sale of that camera. He still gets his profit. To be clear, I would never ask a dealer to put skin in the game that he might not get back. If, once the early M9 demand is met and things go back to normal, I were to go into a dealer and ask for a Steel Grey model and he said he didn't normally stock that color, but would be happy to ring up his Leica rep and have one delivered the following week, I would certainly honor that commitment. No, I genuinely don't understand what the concern is... Jeff, I am with you on this issue. I would not misrepresent myself either. Thanks, k-hawinkler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted December 20, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 20, 2009 i figured i'd just sty on one list (since sept 27th) and ...i'm still waiting..and i'll just stay on one list because my m8.2 is great, i can wait:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 20, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 20, 2009 Interesting. For the M8 (I can't say for the M9 because I'm not looking for one) UK Leica dealers were asking for a 10% non-refundable deposit for you to be put on their list, which was deliberately done to prevent potential customers from multiple-listing. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted December 20, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 20, 2009 I'm a good customer at my local dealer, and have had no difficulty in buying an M9 apart from a three week wait. I would not go on multiple lists and if paying up front became the norm I would just wait until the camera became readily available. Perhaps here in the UK the multiple list scenario is not so common. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankA Posted December 20, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 20, 2009 Everyone forgets that actions create consequences. It is not illegal or immoral to be on multiple lists (I am on one). But being on multiple lists creates a lot of negative consequences that affect real people. That is the essence of understanding ethics. Knowing that what you do can create problems for others. Leica has no idea how many cameras to make. Stores have no idea how many they will sell. Individuals who could have been higher on a list may have to wait longer as the store sorts it out. And some buyers do not contact the store if they do not want it or got it somewhere else. These are just a few of the consequences. So it is not a problem for you individually if you are on multiple lists but it creates all kinds of problems for others. Not seeing that is really what this is about. Screw everyone else, I am taking care of myself mentality. A lot of problems in this world could be solved if we had less of this mentality. We are human and we all succumb to this at one time or another. Just because you may not see it as an issue does not make it right. You are rationalizing. With that said it is your right to make whatever decision you want. But whatever that is it does affect others. Just an opinion. Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 21, 2009 Share #35 Posted December 21, 2009 Everyone forgets that actions create consequences. It is not illegal or immoral to be on multiple lists (I am on one). But being on multiple lists creates a lot of negative consequences that affect real people. That is the essence of understanding ethics. Knowing that what you do can create problems for others. Leica has no idea how many cameras to make. Stores have no idea how many they will sell. Individuals who could have been higher on a list may have to wait longer as the store sorts it out. And some buyers do not contact the store if they do not want it or got it somewhere else. These are just a few of the consequences. So it is not a problem for you individually if you are on multiple lists but it creates all kinds of problems for others. Not seeing that is really what this is about. Screw everyone else, I am taking care of myself mentality. A lot of problems in this world could be solved if we had less of this mentality. We are human and we all succumb to this at one time or another. Just because you may not see it as an issue does not make it right. You are rationalizing. With that said it is your right to make whatever decision you want. But whatever that is it does affect others. Just an opinion. Frank Excellent observation. I am only on one list but don't have an issue with folks who are on multiple lists. Isn't it correct that Leica and their dealers set up the current system? If they wanted to they could change it, right? So, what Leica distribution and sales system would you like to see in place to improve the current situation. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2mini Posted December 21, 2009 Share #36 Posted December 21, 2009 Everyone forgets that actions create consequences. It is not illegal or immoral to be on multiple lists (I am on one). But being on multiple lists creates a lot of negative consequences that affect real people. That is the essence of understanding ethics. Knowing that what you do can create problems for others. Leica has no idea how many cameras to make. Stores have no idea how many they will sell. Individuals who could have been higher on a list may have to wait longer as the store sorts it out. And some buyers do not contact the store if they do not want it or got it somewhere else. These are just a few of the consequences. So it is not a problem for you individually if you are on multiple lists but it creates all kinds of problems for others. Not seeing that is really what this is about. Screw everyone else, I am taking care of myself mentality. A lot of problems in this world could be solved if we had less of this mentality. We are human and we all succumb to this at one time or another. Just because you may not see it as an issue does not make it right. You are rationalizing. With that said it is your right to make whatever decision you want. But whatever that is it does affect others. Just an opinion. Frank I respectfully disagree. If anything, others are going to be happy to be bumped up when I do call to cancel or when the dealer calls me and I decline. I know I was excited to hear of people canceling their orders at B&H because I know that I might have just gotten bumped up if they had an order in before i did. At this point in the game (and probably until Spring) Leica will not be able to keep up with sales and they most likely do not have any way of knowing or care how many people are on the list. Right now they are just making as many M9's as they can. When a dealer gets one in, they just go down the list. Easy. No harm done. Now like someone else said, if money was transferred between hands or some other formal commitment like that was made, then there is an inconvenience to the dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted December 21, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 21, 2009 Isn't it correct that Leica and their dealers set up the current system? If they wanted to they could change it, right? So, what Leica distribution and sales system would you like to see in place to improve the current situation. Thanks. Well, you could order and pay for your M9 and be given a reference number from Leica. Leica will then build it to order and you get it in about 9 months ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 21, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 21, 2009 Well, you could order and pay for your M9 and be given a reference number from Leica. Leica will then build it to order and you get it in about 9 months ... That fast? Impressive! LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamriman Posted December 21, 2009 Share #39 Posted December 21, 2009 No list. It's more fun to catch one available without putting a dime down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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