Who would like an M 9 autofocus?

[zlatkob]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Originally Posted by jamriman View Post

An auto focus lens on an M camera is like a Ferrari with an automatic transmission.

-------------------------------------------------

 

I hate these car analogies but Ferrari is like the total opposite of Leica. Their cars (especially the F1 models) are the research and development platforms for all kinds of advanced features and materials. For the past 10 years or so most Ferraris have been sold with what is effectively an automatic (F1) transmission.

 

F1 to GT - F1 Technology Transfer to GT Cars

 

"Changing gear on the 430 Scuderia, for instance, takes just 60 milliseconds..."

 

Hmmm, that is interesting. Given that Ferraris are sold with what is effectively an advanced automatic transmission, the car analogy becomes quite ironic and apt because it describes a positive attribute (super high performance) rather than a negative one. It leads one to imagine autofocus that is as quick and advanced as the Ferrari transmission. It wouldn't be an M of course because M lenses are and should be manual focus. But the car analogy helps us to imagine an M-sized and styled camera body that offers superb autofocus, sold right next to the original M.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[AlanG]

OK Alan but there is no EVF on the 5D2 is it? So do you expect that an EVF can get the same kind result as that of a (bigger) LCD as far as noise?

 

I am not an electronics engineer so I don't know what is available. But I think the noise has to do with the image capture and processing not whether it is displayed on a 3" LCD or on a smaller EVF.

[AlanG]

Hmmm, that is interesting. Given that Ferraris are sold with what is effectively an advanced automatic transmission, the car analogy becomes quite ironic and apt because it describes a positive attribute (super high performance) rather than a negative one. It leads one to imagine autofocus that is as quick and advanced as the Ferrari transmission. It wouldn't be an M of course because M lenses are and should be manual focus. But the car analogy helps us to imagine an M-sized and styled camera body that offers superb autofocus, sold right next to the original M.

 

Yeah I think Ferrari still makes at least one model with a traditional manual gearbox. But I don't think many people buy them.

 

I think if you look at face and smile recognition technology you'll see what is possible in the future. With more powerful computers in the camera and fast enough lens motors I don't see why an 800mm telephoto lens couldn't keep a bird's eye in focus as it flies.

 

I read a post elsewhere of a feature request for Capture One software. That would use face recognition technology to keep a person's face centered in the magnified focus box when shooting tethered regardless of where that person is in the actual photograph. This would allow the digital technician to constantly monitor the focus when a photographer is shooting tethered and the model is moving. Handy idea isn't it?

[Vip]

It would be a bit like a latter-day Visoflex, only stuck to the top/ back. I fear it would share the fate of the Visoflex of being second-rate compared to dedicated cameras, a thing that makes nearly every Visoflex you find virtually unused.

The visoflex in comparison to an EVF optional attached to the hot shoe is:

* Heavier

*Bigger

* More difficult to mount

*Impossible to switch immediately fro EVF to RF

* EVF will be cheaper

*More in The M style: almost invisible

* Not showing electronic possible optional elaboration of image such as exposition

[carbon_dragon]

I don't much like the idea of AF in an M, but if you like the idea of focus confirmation, go find yourself a Contax RX and a 50/1.4 lens and try it. The RX is a great camera with great lenses, now no longer made, which had a manual focus confirmation light to assist you in getting the sharpest focus.They also did an "autofocus" camera that used manual lenses called the AX. That one used in body focus. but was somewhat limited based on where you have the manual focus of the lens.

 

Never had either one myself, but I still have my RTS III and my Aria.

[Vip]

You are right! but the Contax ( I had the Rts 1 and 2) is now a dead system.

Not so compact as an M and in my esperience the lens was not at the same level to the Leica one's specially for color nuance.

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The visoflex in comparison to an EVF optional attached to the hot shoe is:

* Heavier

*Bigger

* More difficult to mount

*Impossible to switch immediately fro EVF to RF

* EVF will be cheaper

*More in The M style: almost invisible

* Not showing electronic possible optional elaboration of image such as exposition

All that is true, but it will come second to a dedicated EVF camera in usability nonetheless. It is only a matter of time before a FF EVF camera will appear, possibly one that takes R lenses. At that moment such an accessory for the M will become rather unattractive (pricewise too I suppose )

[Jeff S]

Yeah I think Ferrari still makes at least one model with a traditional manual gearbox.

 

All models have manual option, until the forthcoming 599 replacement. Ferrari finally gave in to the new age, primarily due to customer demand.

 

I hope Leica always at least give us the choice.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

My bet would be that the "Leica R solution" will be an EVF camera that takes M lenses as well. It would make everybody happy. But it will not be built by Leica, although the red dot stuck onto it will probably cost 750 Euro.

[@bumac]

?????

[jaapv]

Just speculation, Reiner

[Vip]

All that is true, but it will come second to a dedicated EVF camera in usability nonetheless. It is only a matter of time before a FF EVF camera will appear, possibly one that takes R lenses. At that moment such an accessory for the M will become rather unattractive (pricewise too I suppose )

That is surely possible! But is a pity that should be forced to choose or a RF or an full EVF and not be able to stay toghether.

[AlanG]

All that is true, but it will come second to a dedicated EVF camera in usability nonetheless. It is only a matter of time before a FF EVF camera will appear, possibly one that takes R lenses. At that moment such an accessory for the M will become rather unattractive (pricewise too I suppose )

 

Why would it become unattractive? People buy the GF1 and add a clip on EVF or optical viewfinder while the GH1 camera, that has a built in EVF, is also available. Live view in an M would give you similar choices. Other than it being made by Leica, a clip on EVF doesn't have to be expensive.

 

I have a 4" video monitor that I plug into the 5DII for remote viewing via live view when the camera is in a position that makes it impossible for me to see the camera's LCD or through the reflex finder. Why not have the same ability with an M?

[jaapv]

It would become unattractive in the same way the Visoflex was unattractive. Not that SLR cameras were much less primitive than the Visoflex was back then, it was just that the integrated solution was more handy in use, so the Visoflex lost out. Much easier to have both an Asahi Spotmatic and a Leica M4 than to go the whole way with Leica and get the Visoflex and V lenses.

It would be the same with a clip-on EVF vs some kind of FF G1-type camera, I think, especially if it would take M lenses.

[AlanG]

It would become unattractive in the same way the Visoflex was unattractive. Not that SLR cameras were much less primitive than the Visoflex was back then, it was just that the integrated solution was more handy in use, so the Visoflex lost out. Much easier to have both an Asahi Spotmatic and a Leica M4 than to go the whole way with Leica and get the Visoflex and V lenses.

It would be the same with a clip-on EVF vs some kind of FF G1-type camera, I think, especially if it would take M lenses.

 

I think you miss the point entirely. The G1 and the GH1 came out with integrated EVFs first. Then the GF1 came out with a clip on EVF and that smaller package is attractive to many shooters despite the fact that the clip on EVF is not even as good as the EVF in the other models.

 

In any case the M would be a much more useful camera simply by adding live view (even without a clip on EVF) and that must be obvious even to Leica. Whether they can make it this century or not.

 

Let's go back in time 3 or 4 years and imagine the reaction if Leica had introduced a full frame 18 megapixel digital M that had the standard optical rangefinder/viewfinder but also had live view and a clip on EVF. Everyone would be saying that Leica's offering was ingenious and would be singing their praises.

 

As for future cameras with built in EVFs... I'd prefer EVFs to be removable so that they can be tethered for remote use or simply to facilitate shooting from an unusual angle. And if they are removable, they can be upgraded as display technology improves... Additionally, maybe you want to mount the camera on a Steadicam or other device, and use a 6" monitor in place of the EVF. So having choices of viewfinders would be a lot like having choices of lenses. You couldn't do any of this with a Visoflex. A Visoflex was slow in practice and had a limited choice of lenses. It was a kludge that was way inferior for reflex photography than using let's say a motorized Nikon F2. A removable EVF is an elegant solution that cannot be bested simply by having it built in to the body. Having a removable EVF on an M would be to its advantage should the other manufacturers only have built in EVFs. I don't see any reason why an M with a clip on EVF would need to be much larger than a similar camera with a built in EVF.

 

Even in the old days, a Linhof Technika had a choice of coupled rangefinder, optical viewfinder, aerial finder, sports-finder, direct ground glass viewing and ground glass viewing via a 90 degree reflex housing. They even made a twin lens reflex attachment that let you shoot a la Halsman or Gowland who had custom large format twin lens reflex cameras. Having various ways to focus or sight through a camera is kind of a basic concept that has been appreciated by many photographers for a long time. I really think some of the views on this forum of how a "Leica should be used" are rather limited and so "last century." Time moves on...

[jaapv]

I wouldn't mind it being so - I would not buy it and I'm just doubting the number ofusers that would buy this extra.

[AlanG]

I wouldn't mind it being so - I would not buy it and I'm just doubting the number ofusers that would buy this extra.

 

 

They have no problem selling a lens for $10,000 and you worry if they can sell a viewfinder that they can probably subcontract for less than $100.

[jaapv]

I'm not worrying - I leave that to Leica's marketing department. But you are forgetting the development of such a camera - the obligatory change to CMos, etc. It is not just the part itself.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AlanG]

I'm not worrying - I leave that to Leica's marketing department. But you are forgetting the development of such a camera - the obligatory change to CMos, etc. It is not just the part itself.

 

I'm not forgetting any of that. That is why I said they might not be able to do it this century. If they could they would. At one time, German engineering meant something... I attended the Rochester Institute of Technology and at that time German was the only foreign language the school offered... so that you could read the engineering books.

[jaapv]

Well, this century still has 90 years to run, although I fear I will only see a smallish part of that.