jaapv Posted December 13, 2009 Share #61 Posted December 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) As a kid I used to speculate like this before Christmas on the contents of my stocking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Firmware Update -- Predictions on When??. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted December 13, 2009 Share #62 Posted December 13, 2009 Andy there really is no need to feel a need to justify "Leica actions" to me. Actually, sometimes, I think that there is. You are all for "I need this now", without thinking about what delivering something "now" actually means. It seems that you feel that we are about to see a firmware release that will fix most or ALL ills that have been posted on this forum ...that is great news. I have said nothing of the sort. You are putting words into my mouth again, to suit your own agenda, as you have done in the past. Please stop doing so, it is extremely rude. I have seen some threads that suggest firmware is about to be released and some fortunate people have beta versions since Sept 9th. I am NOT aware of any Leica official position of any firmware release for the rest of us and nor am I aware of M8 users opportunity to get new firmware. When the firmware is ready, I am sure that the forum will be amongst the first to know. Personally, I have no idea when that might be, and even if I did know, I wouldn't tell you. I would ask and I suspect that you cannot answer: When will the next relase happen (M8 and M9) ? No idea Which fixes will be included in the release? No idea Which fixes given the many issues identified will not be addressed and when will they be addressed? No idea Will the 3 year old "shutter lock up" of M8 and M9 issue be finally fixed (my real concern is that the Rolls Royce of cameras should have no issue that lasts 3 years before being fixed) No idea Will the M8 benefit from a firmware release enjoyed by M9 new owners? (I bought my M8 camera in June so I feel I should get something?) No idea In my view these are reasonable questions for any M digital owner. ..am I wrong? ..is it really the case that it is wrong to ask when will the many issues on the M9 be fixed and the outstanding issues of the M8 be addressed? No idea I am fully aware that the M9 and M8 can take great pictures but surely we are talking about the Rolls Royce here. Are you actually using your camera? Or are you just sitting there fretting over when the next firmware is going to arrive? I do wonder, sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #63 Posted December 13, 2009 Just out of curiosity, can anyone name a camera company that pre-announces firmware upgrades? As in "We have an upgrade coming in a week (or a month, or 2 months, or 5 days from now)." As far as I can see, they are always announced when they are ready to download, with no advance notice. You are to some extent correct...however that is like saying that we in this forum had no idea in July that there would be a M9 and that it was going to be full frame and that 09/09/09 was a likely date. I have said 10/10/10 is another date to mark in the diary and in July 2010 we shall see if that is reasonable given the leaks and under table press briefings at that time. The fact is that what we are discussing here is firmware, not camera hardware. Software is very different and many of us are aware that Adobe Creative Suite CS5 is likely to happen in April 2010 ...it will apparently be 64bit and Windows 7 compatible . It has not been officially announced but the industry is ready for it and I for one will upgrade then and NOT now. I ask why is it that Leica cannot announce broad intentions on what they plan to release as Firmware to fix basic "flaws" in the existing M9 ( and to some extent M8) product? Frankly for some people like myself I would want to see this before I would buy a M9 as I own a M8....I also would want to understand if there are hardware issues (Mark Norton comments about alignment of 18mm lens) that Leica feel a need to address. Bottom line Leica need to communicate better to their loyal client base in my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 13, 2009 Share #64 Posted December 13, 2009 I ask why is it that Leica cannot announce broad intentions on what they plan to release as Firmware For all the reasons I said earlier this evening. When the firmware is ready, they will let you know. I expect Stefan Daniel will phone you personally If Leica said "We will have new firmware ready for the M9 on 1st January", and it doesn't arrive, what will you be doing on the 2nd? I can guess... "Oh, yet another missed deadline by those incompetents at Leica!" Someone wiser than you or me once said that "Patience is a virtue". A lesson worth learning, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #65 Posted December 13, 2009 Andy ...you have confirmed the point I was trying to make Your original post said that Leica have a firmware ready since Sept. When I ask all the questions about what is actually going to be released and when? ...you answer on each point "NO IDEA" Is that good? Is that what we expect from a supplier of a camera that is the Rolls Royce? I sure hope that Leica Solms are listening to this exchange as in my view they should feel the urge to communicate. Yes I have been using my Leica M8 and have sold 40 images last week for a charity event, plus have entered a local photo competition to take images of olive trees within my area . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 13, 2009 Share #66 Posted December 13, 2009 NO IT DOESN'T! Please, read what I wrote and not what you want to see. The firmware ready since September is the one already installed in the camera. As I said. I have no idea when the NEXT iteration of the firmware is going to be released, nor what it is going to cover. How about submitting three of your shots to the Leica Forum Charity Book? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted December 13, 2009 Share #67 Posted December 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica doesn't have a 'client base', Frank. It has customers who have purchased its products. It owes them absolutely nothing. Even repair or replacement of faulty products is not a matter between Leica and the owner, but between the retailer and the owner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 13, 2009 Share #68 Posted December 13, 2009 Redbaron - quite so. It's like saying that Dualit have a client base, of all the people who have bought their toasters. Or Dyson, of all the people who have bought their vacuum cleaners. However, Leica do want their customers to have the best possible experience using their products, hence the work that is going on to improve the firmware in the M9. And, perhaps, the M8 too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted December 13, 2009 Share #69 Posted December 13, 2009 Is that good? Is that what we expect from a supplier of a camera that is the Rolls Royce? I sure hope that Leica Solms are listening to this exchange as in my view they should feel the urge to communicate. HI Frank I would have thought that if they were 'listening' you would be confirming them in the idea that when the firmware is ready, then it's time to say what's in it. (and to keep their mouths firmly shut until then). Making advance promises simply starts the next stage of the argument: "It's not enough, what have they been doing" etc. etc. As Andy has pointed out; camera companies almost never pre-announce firmware releases, it's a hostage to fortune. If it's complete and ready, then they release it . . . if it isn't, then they won't be quite certain what's going to be in it. One thing I'm certain of is that Leica have not had a firmware update ready since September - if that were the case, why on earth wouldn't they release it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #70 Posted December 13, 2009 For all the reasons I said earlier this evening. When the firmware is ready, they will let you know. I expect Stefan Daniel will phone you personally If Leica said "We will have new firmware ready for the M9 on 1st January", and it doesn't arrive, what will you be doing on the 2nd? I can guess... "Oh, yet another missed deadline by those incompetents at Leica!" Someone wiser than you or me once said that "Patience is a virtue". A lesson worth learning, I think. You do not get the point ... Patience is indeed a virtue......Is it reasonable to wait three years however for the shutter lockup issue to be fixed on M8 which has also been carried over to M9? I have never said Leica engineers (or their management) are incompetent. .. I have in many threads suggested that they have created a technological marvel in the M9 ...so why do you suggest this? Is it because I dare to suggest that there are issues to fix, or that they are not as a company communicating when they plan to release fixes for well known issues? I have not so far listed the M9 issues as have been well identified here in this forum by the few people that have the camera and maybe there should be a sticky for that as it seems to me that many people have identified a large range of issues that do need fixingand surely this should be captured. On item 3 to be clear I am a little tongue in cheek as I do not yet have a M9 and I still think my next purchase will be M10 and a few lenses prior. That said I would noy buy the 18mm with its apparent possible issues of alignment on M9 (see Mark Norton thread). Andy you do not have a M8 nor a M9 as I understand it so why are you so critical of my questioning? Surely this forum is not just an opportunity to tell how great the Leica products are...and I think that they are excellent overall. Finally you suggested that I take some photos. As always I listen to your advice and below is a shot of our local olive trees in Opio where I live. (Sorry about the reflection top right ...if anyone can tell me where to get a lens hood for the tri elmar 28/35/50 I'd appreciate as I do not have one. ) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/106298-firmware-update-predictions-on-when/?do=findComment&comment=1150032'>More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted December 13, 2009 Share #71 Posted December 13, 2009 .if anyone can tell me where to get a lens hood for the tri elmar 28/35/50 I'd appreciate as I do not have one. ) If you mean for the second version, B&H in the States had them in stock the last time I looked. Cost is around $150. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted December 13, 2009 Share #72 Posted December 13, 2009 On Dec. 5th I posted a note saying that I had held an M9 with provisional firmware 1.006 in my hands.That indicates to me that Leica will be issuing an update in the not too distant future. Some of the problems mentioned in the forum seem to have already been addressed in 1.006, such as faster chimping and zooming as well as AWB. A little more patience seems to be called for. In the meantime I am enjoying using the M9. Teddy Funny isn't it. Teddy makes a post which is entirely relevant and presumably factual (unless he is actually a liar - which seems unlikely). . . . . and everyone completely ignores it and carries on ranting. Thank you Teddy for this useful information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #73 Posted December 13, 2009 Leica doesn't have a 'client base', Frank. It has customers who have purchased its products. It owes them absolutely nothing. Even repair or replacement of faulty products is not a matter between Leica and the owner, but between the retailer and the owner. Legally you are almost correct ...In europe legally what you sell has to be "fit for purpose" and that could be an area of issue for a company that sells what must be regarded as a pro quality camera at a £4850 price plus lenses . I would believe that Leica would win that argument however if someone claimed against them. More seriously any company has these days in my opinion to recognise that they MUST be client focussed . Taking an attitude that you seem to suggest that "It owes them absolutely nothing" has been the downfall of many a company. I hope that Leica do not go that route ....if they do I for one shall sell my kit and buy something else....just like many "R camera faithful" did. Actually I probably would keep my M film cameras and lenses for nostalgic reasons and shoot digital with a competitor DSLR which is what many on this forum are doing.....but that would kill any revenue stream for Leica going forward I guess. My view is being client centric is key for Leica as it is in all businesses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #74 Posted December 13, 2009 If you mean for the second version, B&H in the States had them in stock the last time I looked. Cost is around $150. Thanks ...I am not sure if I have second version but think yes. I'll get after them, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 13, 2009 Share #75 Posted December 13, 2009 If you mean for the second version, B&H in the States had them in stock the last time I looked. Cost is around $150.And if it is the first version you should use the hood of the 24/2.8. It's a very tight fit but it is just fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted December 13, 2009 Share #76 Posted December 13, 2009 Legally you are almost correct ...In europe legally what you sell has to be "fit for purpose" and that could be an area of issue for a company that sells what must be regarded as a pro quality camera at a £4850 price plus lenses . I would believe that Leica would win that argument however if someone claimed against them. No Frank. Legally, I'm totally correct. Leica does not sell directly to the public, therefore it has no legal contract with any end user. Fitness for purpose is a matter between the retailer and their customer. Surely as a CEO you should know that. Maybe this will explain where Leica's focus is: Leica Camera AG - Corporate Values Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 13, 2009 Share #77 Posted December 13, 2009 and everyone completely ignores it and carries on ranting. And everyone still ignores it. The new firmware sounds promising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted December 13, 2009 Share #78 Posted December 13, 2009 And everyone still ignores it. The new firmware sounds promising. Hi Ian Thank you - amazing isn't it - it rather proves that it's the fight that matters . . . and not the answer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 14, 2009 Share #79 Posted December 14, 2009 And everyone still ignores it. The new firmware sounds promising. It is interesting, and I'm sorry I missed the reference earlier as it proves my point. Since September there may well have been at least 4 iterations of the firmware being tested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 14, 2009 Share #80 Posted December 14, 2009 It is interesting, and I'm sorry I missed the reference earlier as it proves my point. Since September there may well have been at least 4 iterations of the firmware being tested. Andy is that a guess that Leica have had 4 iterations since September? If it is true they must be taking a scattergun approach to what should be rigorous software design using a solid configuration management tool to ensure that what they change does not affect other parts of the software. I sure hope your 4 iterations is a guess and not reality. Separately people have said that camera mfgs. do not preannounce firmware releases and that somehow makes it OK for Leica to follow suit. I thought Leica as the Rolls Royce and a smaller sized company can and usually do things differently. I would see free firmware updates as being very separate from preannouncing new products. I can also understand that there are marketing issues for firmware feature enhancements to M8 that will apparently be charged for when they are eventually released....so again I see that as something separate. What I really have an issue with is that Leica has an opportunity to be open and communicative to users and they should sieze this in my view. What is the downside of being client focussed in this way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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