Firmware Update -- Predictions on When??

[Jamie Roberts]

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Which Japanese counterparts?

 

[Jager]

Do remember that the current firmware version (1.002) was only just finalized right at launch. The first M9 shipment went out with a pre-prod version and dealers were given the prod version to load before handing them over to the first customers.

 

We're now roughly 90 days from that firmware release. Ninety days may sound like a lot to a lay person. But those who know anything about software development lifecycles know that that is a very short period of time. Were Leica to release a firmware update right now that would be extremely aggressive.

 

Patience is in order.

[rosuna]

We are at the very beginning of the life of this camera...

[adan]

No, I am not surprised there is not yet a released firmware upgrade (I'm sure there are in-house betas being tested).

 

If there was a major firmware bug - something that actually was widespread among users and was a serious hindrance to photography, equivalent to the blobs and banding of the first M8 run - I'd expect a quick fix for that specific problem. I haven't seen any issue rising to that level yet (the red edges with a couple of Leica wide angles coming the closest).

 

Absent such an issue, I think Leica would prefer to:

 

1) Make sure they (and we) have identified all the things that may need fixing, so that an integrated firmware rewrite includes all of them in efficient code, not just "patches."

 

2) Make sure that they are addressing real issues, and not just certain preferences from some users. E.G. - I have had no SD card issues whatsoever, and IF (note the IF) that is the case for 95% of M9 users, then I'd guess it is a low priority for fixing. If it turns out to be really widespread, then it is a high priority.

 

3) Make sure user-suggested changes are integrated with their own in-house goals for improvements (i.e. longer battery life). The "slow read" of the high-res image for zooming may be a specific design choice (not mistake, choice) Leica made to reduce power use - only devote processor time/power to loading the high res image if and when the photographer calls for it by zooming, rather than for every image preview.

 

If going back to the M8 approach of reading in every hi-res image in the background means a 30% hit on battery life, I doubt they will change it. OTOH if it is a major complaint among users and only means 5% extra battery use, then Leica will likely change it back.

 

But until Leica has enough feedback from users to determine what really needs fixing (when a lot of users don't even have their camera yet) and what it costs in terms of other factors, they don't really have enough information to do a rational upgrade.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

But until Leica has enough feedback from users to determine what really needs fixing (when a lot of users don't even have their camera yet) and what it costs in terms of other factors, they don't really have enough information to do a rational upgrade.

 

I usually agree with you Andy but on this I think you're off the mark. The M9 clearly--clearly--has card write / performance / preview performance issues that will get fixed.

 

In fact, it reminds of the M8 in the late part of 2006, before they cleaned up the card-write I/O code. Or the first DMR firmwares (still the slowest camera to chimp in the world, probably).

 

But there's a thing called "baseline performance," and even leaving Canon and Nikon aside (they really do provide performance baselines IMO) the M9 surely shouldn't be slower to read, write or preview than an M8.

 

The fact that it's slower with faster cards means, to me, anyway, that this is simply caution on Leica's part and performance is coming (and not at the expense of battery life either).

[Guest BigSplash]

You don't like them taking their time to do it right, Frank. You clearly prefer quick and dirty... And it was the TR 7 and TR8 that killed off Triumph, not the TR6. Please get your facts straight.

 

Jaapv ...I do not think that fixing the shutter lockup fault should take 3 years (M8) and then still be with us on the M9....this is not quick!

I think "dirty" is magenta cast and corner issue etc on M9 that should have been resolved during the development and field testing and if it could not be resolved if we are talking about perfection I wonder why they did not delay production, or advise clients that the problem is planned to be resolved within a firmware release (forecast date:???)

 

I agree that the M7 and M8 were disasters but I do not agree about the TR6 and its demise. I checked the factory production numbers for the TR6...1969 (7141units), 1970 (8940), 1971 (8941) 1972 (10736), 1973 (12500), 1974 (13276) 1975 (4990), 1976 (5328*) 1977 (3000*) * actually these cars were made in 1975 and could not be sold.

 

My point is that the production volumes are similar to Leica M8 and maybe M9...At launch the volumes starts at about 7KU/yr and peaks at 13.3KU /yr due to having a great product that is liked by the market...but then the volumes drop off a cliff.

Remember M8 drove a huge demand at launch, and then they tweaked it with M8.2 that kept volume going a bit longer followed by poor demand.

 

I hope that lessons have been learned.

[jaapv]

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Umm you lost me here. Which unfixed shutter lockup fault on the M8 is still with us on the M9 ??

Oh- and those Triumph numbers -although Triumph did not build cameras to my knowledge- only mean that they should have introduced an 8-cylinder, Buick/Rover engined TR8 in 1975 instead of trying to modernize to imagined user's wishes.It is almost as if they had a forum with bulleted posts to tell them so.

[adan]

Hi, Jamie!

 

I'm sure there are things Leica could patch right now. I just think their philosophy is to not issue versions 1.003, 1.004, and 1.005 each three weeks apart, so they will "collect" issues to solve in one upgrade (soon) without having to do another until March or so (unless something ugly crops up).

 

Which is fine with me - I don't find firmware upgrades a fun way to spend my time, so I prefer them to be few and far between. Red edges, formatting times, review sequence, lens cap locks - do 'em all at once.

 

As I recall, the first major M8 firmware upgrade was to resequence the shutter to eliminate the "waterfall" artifacts if one shot too quickly after switch-on/wake-up. I think it was about mid-Dec. for a camera also introduced in Sept. - so we are likely close to the first revision. (Get it out of the way so the holidays can proceed calmly and happily).

 

I guess my feeling regarding firmware, or most anything else one can get on the web, is that "it ain't ready until it's ready" - and then it takes a couple of hours at most to put on the Leica website, test for download problems, and go live. If it is ready enough to send out a "statement" of when it will be ready - it is already ready.

[adan]

... the level of tolerance of basic failings that would never be accepted from a broad user base of a japanese product is just remarkable.

 

Well, I guess I can kind of sympathize with that.

 

For 20 years I've been amazed at the level of tolerance many photographers have for basic failings (flapping, noisy mirrors; grossly oversized and overweight bodies, mostly poor lens performance (as a percent of lenses sold); really cr*ppy small AF oriented viewfinders) in SLRs.

 

For the past 10 years, I have, indeed, refused to accept them anymore.

 

It just depends on what constitutes "basic failings" for any given person. I never-ever use autoreview, rarely use review at all when shooting, and rarely zoom in except for the occasional lens test. So while I grant that there may be room for improvement in those functions, they are pretty marginal to me - not "basic" at all.

[Chroma project]

Also sprach Zarathustra.

Cheers,

Ario

 

how sad, and ridiculous old man.

[rosuna]

As I recall, the first major M8 firmware upgrade was to resequence the shutter to eliminate the "waterfall" artifacts if one shot too quickly after switch-on/wake-up. I think it was about mid-Dec. for a camera also introduced in Sept. - so we are likely close to the first revision. (Get it out of the way so the holidays can proceed calmly and happily).

 

I also prefer a deep and well-tested revision a few weeks later than minor urgent revisions. Those urgent fixes only make sense if the problem is severe. The camera will improve. Remember the last firmware version for the DMR. Years after the back was released and it bought improvements! I expect the same for the M8/M9: an effort for continuous improvement.

[Steve Ash]

I'm married to a German woman, spent quite a bit of time there, and have done photo shoots for German companies in the past. I'm sure I'm generalizing here, but it is a culture that doesn't readily admit mistakes easily.

 

Hello Charles,

 

let me tell you a secret. It is not a German culture thing, but because you are marred to a woman.

 

Regards

Steve

[scottwallick]

We are at the very beginning of the life of this camera...

 

Indeed. I would suggest that all the M9s users out there write down their notes on what works, what doesn't, what should be fixed, what could be enhanced, and then send those along to Leica and/or your Leica rep. First-hand user reports will be helpful in developing a better firmware.

[andybarton]

I agree that the M7 and M8 were disasters but I do not agree about the TR6 and its demise. I checked the factory production numbers for the TR6...1969 (7141units), 1970 (8940), 1971 (8941) 1972 (10736), 1973 (12500), 1974 (13276) 1975 (4990), 1976 (5328*) 1977 (3000*) * actually these cars were made in 1975 and could not be sold.

 

Probably because it was an eight/nine year old car by then? And there'd been a massive fuel crisis, a three day week, a recession and strikes all over the country in the meantime.

 

You also seem to have forgotten the fact that British Leyland was a complete basket-case all round in the mid seventies. Triumph was but a very small part of a very large corporation that wouldn't have known how to make a decent car even if it wanted to.

 

Anyway, the M7 is not a disaster.

 

And, how many firmware updates did the TR6 have?

[redbaron]

Bang, bang, bang! There goes Frank with his drum again. Just the same old anti-Leica song. It must be horrible using gear that you have so many issues with.

[Mokkacream]

The Germans ...

I'm sure I'm generalizing here, but it is a culture that doesn't readily admit mistakes easily.

 

1) Is there a culture which does?

 

2) One thing is true: Germans (in general) are perfectionists. They want to get it right before presentation.

 

3) Is there no patience anymore in this world?

 

 

"I heard and saw a lot of Americans in this world. I'm sure I'm generalizing here, but it is a culture that doesn't readily admit mistakes easily. ... that not everything can be solved by war, or that a money centered mentality dragged the whole world down into a huge financial crisis." ;)

[chrism]

You also seem to have forgotten the fact that British Leyland was a complete basket-case all round in the mid seventies. Triumph was but a very small part of a very large corporation that wouldn't have known how to make a decent car even if it wanted to.

 

My TR7 even had the timing marks in the wrong place on the pulley, and that's not a fault I have come across in any Leica.

 

Chris

[Guest BigSplash]

Bang, bang, bang! There goes Frank with his drum again. Just the same old anti-Leica song. It must be horrible using gear that you have so many issues with.

 

Not at all. I enjoy my Leicas and especially the M8. I also like the Visoflex and have said so many times.

However unlike you I clearly believe that what is already a great camera, and in my view the best 35mm camera available today for my needs actually can be improved.

 

So yes I continue to bang my drum and leave you to your happy bliss....with a £4850 camera that you are happy with and one that you feel is so perfect and needs no improvement, supplied by a company that is also perfect.

[stunsworth]

I agree that the M7 and M8 were disasters

 

Disasters? Yet you use an M8? The M7 a disaster? How on earth could you say that?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[redbaron]

I shoot MPs and I leave the design of my cameras to qualified experts.