M'Ate Posted December 12, 2009 Share #41 Posted December 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I agree that the M7 and M8 were disasters Ahha, You're back and spilling your crap again ! Your lack of knowledge of Leica cameras and photography is so frustrating it makes me feel nauseous every time I read a post from you. Such a pain. The M7 is a fantastic camera. I've used one for thousands of films. The fastest film camera in the M range. Dependable and reliable. The M8 was a landmark camera for Leica and a great success, albeit not without it's issues. It provided the platform for Leica to market and develop the digital M. Disasters. Look in the mirror BigLash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 Hi M'Ate, Take a look here Firmware Update -- Predictions on When??. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted December 12, 2009 Share #42 Posted December 12, 2009 Probably because it was an eight/nine year old car by then? And there'd been a massive fuel crisis, a three day week, a recession and strikes all over the country in the meantime. You also seem to have forgotten the fact that British Leyland was a complete basket-case all round in the mid seventies. Triumph was but a very small part of a very large corporation that wouldn't have known how to make a decent car even if it wanted to. Anyway, the M7 is not a disaster. And, how many firmware updates did the TR6 have? I think you are missing my point, and then adding to it. The Tr6 was ahead of its time with independent suspension, and fuel injection at an affordable price. The production volumes increased year to year and B.Leyland milked it without improving the niggling quality issues, and design flaws...that was my point. Porsche continuously improved their product.....Triumph, MG, Jaguar, did not. All I want is for Leica to learn from this and do the following: Meet the M9 production demand (Tr6 had a 2 year backlog and was being rationed to dealers in 1973 when I bought mine...sound familiar?) Fix any quality issues fast and that includes the various well identified firmware issues. Three years for M8 shutter lockup issue that remains on M9 is not in my view fast, but what about Magenta cast, or corner fix etc? Look after M8 users by upgrading their firmware (known issues ..free) including new functionality from M9 ( at a price) Bring out M10 by end of 2010 as I want one. This camera should address the issues that had to be accepted to achieve 09/09/09 announcement and should embrace latest technology, and any client feedback as a result of a continuous improvement program. My view is that if Leica does this it will continue to move its business forward using the M9 as a healthy platform to do so. You refer to B.Leyland as a complete basket case...I guess you are referring to the company's P&L performance over a period of years and their quality issues. I agree completely but is it not the case that Leica has had it quality issues (M8 launch, Noctilux launch, lenses not well callibrated etc) and P&L problems. In my view these are largely behind Leica now but only if they address the issues above. You also ask about TR6 firmware upgrades and obviously in those days software fixes was not an issue. However they made no serious changes to the spec and build quality of the car throughout its life. They downgraded the power from 150 hp to 125hp, they changed the dashboard from chrome dials to black and kept the unreliable fuel injection, and unreliable electric switches. Making comparisons with a vintage car and the M9 produced 30 years ago is difficult. That said I guess that downgrading the engine is like discontinuing the Trielmar 28/35/50mm lens, downgrading the 75mm from f1.4, and remaining with various issues that will eventually be fixed with firmware. Not being able to meet production demand as happened from 1972 to 1974 has very interesting parrallels I am afraid. Not improving the basic offer, and fixing well known issues is also obvious Finally I am NOT trying to in anyway suggest that M9 (or M8) is flawed....I think that they it is the best 35mm cameras available today, with the best optics. I think Leica have done a super job turning the corner, creating demand and refreshing interest in the marque. My point is that this is now an opportunity to build on this and not simply enjoy watching the cash pour in for the next few months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted December 12, 2009 Share #43 Posted December 12, 2009 Finally I am NOT trying to in anyway suggest that M9 (or M8) is flawed.... So why on earth did you describe the M8 as a disaster? You're not making any sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 12, 2009 Share #44 Posted December 12, 2009 I agree that the M7 and M8 were disasters but I do not agree about the TR6 and its demise. I checked the factory production numbers for the TR6...1969 (7141units), 1970 (8940), 1971 (8941) 1972 (10736), 1973 (12500), 1974 (13276) 1975 (4990), 1976 (5328*) 1977 (3000*) * actually these cars were made in 1975 and could not be sold. . Sorry the above is not what I meant at all ...it is crap. I meant TR7 and TR8 were disasters and was comparing them to the TR6 car . I certainly did NOT mean the M7 and M8 camera. I have a M4, M5, M6 and think that these are superb cameras....I do not have a M7 but believe it to be even better. I also have an M8 and like it enormously. Again sorry for my typo....I hope that I have not offended too many people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted December 12, 2009 Share #45 Posted December 12, 2009 Save it for the AGM, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 12, 2009 Share #46 Posted December 12, 2009 Ahha' date=' You're back and spilling your crap again ! Your lack of knowledge of Leica cameras and photography is so frustrating it makes me feel nauseous every time I read a post from you. Such a pain. The M7 is a fantastic camera. I've used one for thousands of films. The fastest film camera in the M range. Dependable and reliable. The M8 was a landmark camera for Leica and a great success, albeit not without it's issues. It provided the platform for Leica to market and develop the digital M. Disasters. Look in the mirror BigLash. [/quote'] Sorry what I said was indeed crap ...I meant TR7 and TR8 ...see my thread. Sorry you do not like my other postings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 12, 2009 Share #47 Posted December 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Finally I am NOT trying to in anyway suggest that M9 (or M8) is flawed.... Of course you are. If, in your terms, they weren't "flawed" they wouldn't need firmware updates. You can't have it both ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 12, 2009 Share #48 Posted December 12, 2009 Of course you are. If, in your terms, they weren't "flawed" they wouldn't need firmware updates. You can't have it both ways. The definition of a flaw is apparently : "Flaws are software problems that exist in the software’s design. A flaw may or may not represent a vulnerability in the underlying software. Mitigating a flaw typically involves significantly more effort than simply modifying a few lines of code. ..." blemished: having a blemish or flaw; "a flawed diamond";..... So technically you are right the M9 is flawed, and so is the M8. Sorry for any confusion. Both have problems, and there have been many threads including this one that seeks to identify these.. I actually tried to use a more positive tone and therefore suggested that the M9 is a great camera etc and is not flawed as I do not wish to raise concerns for those that maybe are thinking of buying the M9. Can you please tell me what is the best way to describe the M9 while at the same time identifying those issues that need fixing. It seems that those people that even mention any firmware or other issues that need fixing are somehow bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodor Heinrichsohn Posted December 12, 2009 Share #49 Posted December 12, 2009 On Dec. 5th I posted a note saying that I had held an M9 with provisional firmware 1.006 in my hands. That indicates to me that Leica will be issuing an update in the not too distant future. Some of the problems mentioned in the forum seem to have already been addressed in 1.006, such as faster chimping and zooming as well as AWB. A little more patience seems to be called for. In the meantime I am enjoying using the M9. Teddy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted December 12, 2009 Share #50 Posted December 12, 2009 For an amateaur learner, Frank, you sure are demanding! Two photojournalists I know have been asked, at various times in their careers, what they thought of particular features of their cameras. Not here, but by Leica. Both seemed to have a remarkably similar response; they hadn't really thought about it, but would let Leica know if it became a problem. I wonder how these two in particular, like me and thousands of other working pros would ever get anything done if we obsessed over our gear just half as much as you do. Sure, make all the suggestions you like, but show some respect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjr Posted December 12, 2009 Share #51 Posted December 12, 2009 Does anyone else find it quite surprising that Leica hasn't released a single firmware update given the extent of the problems in the original release? Personally, while I love the camera, I do find it odd that they would not correct some of the basic failings like playback magnification, sd card weirdness, etc. So how long will it take? Surprising ? Have you got one ? There is nothing particularly wrong with the camera....and most problems were/are user error or people not reading the manual. Come on now .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 12, 2009 Share #52 Posted December 12, 2009 For an amateaur learner, Frank, you sure are demanding! Two photojournalists I know have been asked, at various times in their careers, what they thought of particular features of their cameras. Not here, but by Leica. Both seemed to have a remarkably similar response; they hadn't really thought about it, but would let Leica know if it became a problem. I wonder how these two in particular, like me and thousands of other working pros would ever get anything done if we obsessed over our gear just half as much as you do. Sure, make all the suggestions you like, but show some respect. Sorry..yet again you are missing the point that I am making. I am not saying at all that : M9 (or my M8) cannot make great photos......it for sure can. M9 or M8 is somehow crap ...it is actually in my view is today the ultimate in digital 35mm photography, and again in my view (as an amteur) I would include all DSLR cameras. I would go further and say that in my belief most photos that are taken with wide angle to 90mm (maybe 135mm) and here the M camera excels so I ask why buy a DSLR? Is it for the occassional telephoto shot or macro? (Remember I have been attacked repeatedly here on my love affair with Visoflex and a desire to see a new technology approach to this for the M camera). I am coming from a point of view that Leica should be : Responsive to this forum and user inputs to improve the product Holding as a high priority ...communication to a loyal user base and forcing a culture of continuous improvement / communication with their loyal user base. In my career I knew engineers that had a love affair with "slide rules" and felt that hand held calculators were not for the future. I have also in the Telecom business seen people that could not relate to low cost long distance calls that actually cost the operator peanuts......Frankly you saying that you know pro photographers that achieve marvels with what is available is in my view not relevant...of course they will! I have just looked at LFI (January) and saw the S2 article. I separately looked at an old brochure of Leicaflex SL2 and in my opinion the SL2 was fabulous, and superior. I often feel the same about Leica photos made with older generation equipment. That said as I am active in high tech I also see the need for continuous improvement. I believe that this forum has a role (maybe even a duty) to articulate to Leica the improvements that we would like to see as users. That is why I am demanding, and I would hope others on this forum would be like minded. I am not out to bash Leica at every opportunity, as some have suggested. I am out to identify issues that the Leica company should know about and address. Some people have suggested that this be done privately and maybe they have a point but then what is the purpose of the forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 12, 2009 Share #53 Posted December 12, 2009 Frank Why is it that seemingly everyone misunderstands the point you are trying to make? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted December 12, 2009 Share #54 Posted December 12, 2009 R-E-S-P-E-C-T, Frank. Sing it now. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #55 Posted December 13, 2009 Frank Why is it that seemingly everyone misunderstands the point you are trying to make? Well actually it seems that it is not only me that is misunderstood but anyone who suggests that there is a flaw, or defect of any kind with a Leica camera. There is ample evidence of that here in this posting and in many other threads in this forum. My view is that any forum is an exchange of ideas and problems that people face with their hobby or product and presumably if a number of people see the same issue the supplier will address it.... Personally for a Rolls Royce of cameras at a price to match I would have thought that everyone on this forum would wish to see perfection (not flaws, that demand work arounds). However many people disagree and suggest that great photos can be made by skilled photographers with M8 and M9 despite the flaws and they are absolutely correct......Does that mean that it is acceptable however to not even know when the firmware will be released and what issues will be resolved....when apparently Leica are Beta testing the software fixes now. Personally I think not. I shall now keep quiet...I have made my point and if others dont agree fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 13, 2009 Share #56 Posted December 13, 2009 Frank You know that Leica are working on new firmware. Why wouldn't they be? As Steve U has said (maybe even in this thread), the current firmware was being worked on right up until 9th September. The very first M9s sold had to have the update done by dealers, as they had the previous version. Since that date, there have been 95 calendar days. It takes time to collate feedback from users, and a lot of time to work out how to fix things in firmware, re-write said firmware and then test it. 95 calendar days isn't very long if you want new firmware that is as bug free as they can make it. Or would you rather they released something that was unfinished, just to meet a deadline...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 13, 2009 Share #57 Posted December 13, 2009 1) Is there a culture which does? 2) One thing is true: Germans (in general) are perfectionists. They want to get it right before presentation. 3) Is there no patience anymore in this world? "I heard and saw a lot of Americans in this world. I'm sure I'm generalizing here, but it is a culture that doesn't readily admit mistakes easily. ... that not everything can be solved by war, or that a money centered mentality dragged the whole world down into a huge financial crisis." ;) Touché! But IMO Germans and Americans are very much alike in that respect. Not a bad thing, just the way it is. And yes patience is needed. The whole world is more and more becoming one that wants it right now, and it better be smaller, cheaper, and better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 13, 2009 Share #58 Posted December 13, 2009 Just out of curiosity, can anyone name a camera company that pre-announces firmware upgrades? As in "We have an upgrade coming in a week (or a month, or 2 months, or 5 days from now)." As far as I can see, they are always announced when they are ready to download, with no advance notice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matlep Posted December 13, 2009 Share #59 Posted December 13, 2009 Just out of curiosity, can anyone name a camera company that pre-announces firmware upgrades? As in "We have an upgrade coming in a week (or a month, or 2 months, or 5 days from now)." As far as I can see, they are always announced when they are ready to download, with no advance notice. Canon did a pre-announced FirmWare upgrade this year for the EOS 5D mark 2, they said it would be released a set date. And they now have announced a new upgrade due for release within Q2 2010 but not date specific yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted December 13, 2009 Share #60 Posted December 13, 2009 Frank You know that Leica are working on new firmware. Why wouldn't they be? As Steve U has said (maybe even in this thread), the current firmware was being worked on right up until 9th September. The very first M9s sold had to have the update done by dealers, as they had the previous version. Since that date, there have been 95 calendar days. It takes time to collate feedback from users, and a lot of time to work out how to fix things in firmware, re-write said firmware and then test it. 95 calendar days isn't very long if you want new firmware that is as bug free as they can make it. Or would you rather they released something that was unfinished, just to meet a deadline...? Andy there really is no need to feel a need to justify "Leica actions" to me. It seems that you feel that we are about to see a firmware release that will fix most or ALL ills that have been posted on this forum ...that is great news. I have seen some threads that suggest firmware is about to be released and some fortunate people have beta versions since Sept 9th. I am NOT aware of any Leica official position of any firmware release for the rest of us and nor am I aware of M8 users opportunity to get new firmware. I would ask and I suspect that you cannot answer: When will the next relase happen (M8 and M9) ? Which fixes will be included in the release? Which fixes given the many issues identified will not be addressed and when will they be addressed? Will the 3 year old "shutter lock up" of M8 and M9 issue be finally fixed (my real concern is that the Rolls Royce of cameras should have no issue that lasts 3 years before being fixed) Will the M8 benefit from a firmware release enjoyed by M9 new owners? (I bought my M8 camera in June so I feel I should get something?) In my view these are reasonable questions for any M digital owner. ..am I wrong? ..is it really the case that it is wrong to ask when will the many issues on the M9 be fixed and the outstanding issues of the M8 be addressed? I am fully aware that the M9 and M8 can take great pictures but surely we are talking about the Rolls Royce here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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