parasko Posted November 28, 2009 Share #1 Posted November 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ok, so I know the M7 is .72 (and .85/.58) and the M9 is .68. But what other differences are there? Are the M9 framelines as accurate as the M7's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Hi parasko, Take a look here M9 framelines: How do they differ from M7?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
el.nino Posted November 28, 2009 Share #2 Posted November 28, 2009 Are the M9 framelines as accurate as the M7's? there are no accurate framelines Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted November 28, 2009 Share #3 Posted November 28, 2009 Framelines can only be 100% accurate at a specific distance to the subject. The M9 sets that distance at 1 meter, same as the M7 and other film bodies. Closer than 1 meter, the actual image will have slightly less than the frameline shows (0.7 meters being the closest focusing distance of any M lens, 1 meter is the closest of other M lenses), and farther away than 1 meter the image will have slightly more than shown by the framelines. The original M8 set the distance at 0.7 meters, so that all images would be accurate ( at 0.7 meters), or larger (at all longer distances). This approach actually made some sense to me, given the ease of cropping digital images, but this meant that so many images were "inaccurate" it was slammed, and Leica went with 2 meters on the M8.2 (and upgraded M8), which Sean Reid among others likes the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted November 28, 2009 Share #4 Posted November 28, 2009 This approach actually made some sense to me, given the ease of cropping digital images... You're giving me flashbacks about the miseries of placing sheets of cardboard on top of my photographic paper to crop the print from the enlarger (I couldn't afford a proper cropping mask in those days). there are no accurate framelines A zen-like comment in all respects. Sad, but true. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted November 28, 2009 Share #5 Posted November 28, 2009 It may be some consolation that there are precious few accurate SLR finders, too. Most of them show less than the full image. The old man from the Age of the Exakta Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 28, 2009 Share #6 Posted November 28, 2009 My M9 definitely has the best (most accurate overall, most usable) 75mm framelines I've ever had in a Leica M - at longer distances the final picture is just a little loose, and at minimum focus of .7/.75 meters the picture is cropped (tighter than the lines) by just about 1 frameline thickness, so easy to allow for in use. I've been meaning to post some examples showing what the framelines "saw" and what the final picture cropping was like, so I'll try to piggyback them onto this thread later today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted November 28, 2009 Share #7 Posted November 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's funny. I almost immediately noticed the inaccuracy of my M8's framelines. But with the M9 I haven't even really paid attention, much like I didn't back in the film days. I really think it has a lot to do with being full frame. Or it could be just the way I shoot which is pretty fast and loose. I really feel like I'm back to to film with the M9. The files are gorgeous and have really great tonality and dynamic range. I even find missing focus to not be such a big deal, just like film. That said I rarely go below iso 400 as I find the lower iso's to be too clean for my personal style. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 28, 2009 Share #8 Posted November 28, 2009 M9 framelines in relationship to final image capture - black borders included in shots where the final area captured was smaller than what the framelines framed: Top to bottom: 75 @ 30 meters 75 @ .7 meters (copy of a print - black area not part of what was captured) 75 @ 1 meter (black area not part of what was actually captured) 135 @ 30 meters 35 @ 35 meters I'm really glad Leica did not go with 2-meter calibration, or the unintentional cropping at .7 and 1 meter would be even stronger than it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted November 28, 2009 Share #9 Posted November 28, 2009 Charles, Agree, the M9 works very well just as it is. I have a feeling that the real issue with the frameline in-accuracy on the M8 probably have to do with the crop-factor, meaning the slight error get enlarged and much more critical, same for focus errors, again more critical when magnified. Getting back to full-frame is indeed much like picking up a film camera, it just works. the rangefinder, frame lines and handling have been massaged for over 50 years to please photographers and it works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 28, 2009 Share #10 Posted November 28, 2009 Are the M9 framelines as accurate as the M7's? Welcome to our fount of study and erudition, a.k.a. forum! Andy's accuracy comparison is very worthwhile, but you'll have no cross-reference If you've never made a similar sequence on film. As Bo implies, the direct answer to your question is that the M7's and the M9's framelines are functionally identical. The problem was that the M8 framelines weren't what we were used to; and in the M8.2, Leica gave us yet another set of non-traditional framelines. With the M9, we're back to the traditional design used in the film cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 28, 2009 Share #11 Posted November 28, 2009 Andy-- Thanks for taking the time to make those comparisons. But do I misread what you're showing? The picture of the baloonist shows that at 0.7 m the 75 captured pretty well what was shown in the framelines, right? But then does the calendar shot at 1 m indicate reduced accuracy, with the black area around the calendar and within the framelines indicating an area not captured? I'm misreading something. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 29, 2009 Share #12 Posted November 29, 2009 Howard - well, of course I know what I was aiming for in the .7-1.0 meter shots, but since what I aimed for wasn't included in the final image, I had to guesstimate a bit as to where the lines actually fell relative to what - isn't - there. I think the lines may have been looser on the right of the balloonist copy shot. Plus they were hand-held, so the camera may have wobbled a bit in pressing the shutter button. Or I may have leaned forward or back a touch at the moment of exposure**, which would change what was actually included. **Actually - I WAS moving back and forth at the moment of exposure, having preset the lens to the distance and then just moved in until the RF patch aligned. May have overshot or undershot the exact distance when pressing the button. I'd say you can assume that at .7 and 1m with the 75 the M9 will crop a bit from the lines - about the same % at either distance, for all practical purposes. Well before 2 meters it will include everything. Beyond 2 meters it will include everything plus a bit. As someone said - there are no accurate framelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 29, 2009 Share #13 Posted November 29, 2009 Andy, thanks for the response, but it's just a question, not a complaint. What I was trying to say is: You're a very careful photographer, so I'm interested in the fact that any difference between the 0.7 and the 1.0 m shots seems to my eye to come out in favor of the 0.7 m image, with less being cut there than I'd have expected. But your response agrees with what I'd have expected, viz that there's not much difference between actual fov and framelines between 0.7 and 1.0 m. I simply hadn't got that from the images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted November 29, 2009 Share #14 Posted November 29, 2009 M9 framelines in relationship to final image capture - black borders included in shots where the final area captured was smaller than what the framelines framed: Top to bottom: 75 @ 30 meters 75 @ .7 meters (copy of a print - black area not part of what was captured) 75 @ 1 meter (black area not part of what was actually captured) 135 @ 30 meters 35 @ 35 meters I'm really glad Leica did not go with 2-meter calibration, or the unintentional cropping at .7 and 1 meter would be even stronger than it is. Very interesting. Indeed the 75mm framelines are a pleasure to use on the M9 while on the M8 its lack accuracy prevented me to use that focal. The M9 framelines are accurate enough, I just wish it was slightly tighter at 35mm at mid distances, but well, I can deal with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
parasko Posted November 29, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted November 29, 2009 Thanks to you all for your comments. ...now if only there was an M9 available for purchase!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted November 29, 2009 Share #16 Posted November 29, 2009 When shooting film, there was so much lag between shooting and processing that most never noticed the extra content in the frames, having forgotten. Also keep in mind that when shooting transparencies, the mount usually covered some of the frame, so that Leica's loose frame lines were quite necessary to avoid cuting off of intended content. Regards ... Harold Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 29, 2009 Share #17 Posted November 29, 2009 Harold - regarding slide mounts (or minilab cropping of prints) - yes, it was speculated that in developing the M8, Leica forgot that digital images don't get trimmed by mounts or the lab, and thus calculated the lines as film frame lines divided by 1.33, but left in the old film safety factor even though no longer needed. Fixed in the upgraded/M8.2/M9 lines, it appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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