Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted November 17, 2009 Share #61 Posted November 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) That's a lot of pros to know Earl . . . . incidentally, I was looking for your website . . . but maybe you login name is a nod to our Kenny? A lot to know? Don't you belong to any prof. associations? Or am I mistaken that you're also a pro? I had a website for five years in business with a partner. Earlier in the year things happened that caused us to split rather suddenly and acrimoniously, and there's some legal entanglements that need sorting before I publish my new site. At least we kept everything under the company banner without names of individual photographers, so thankfully a Google Search for my name doesn't key up his site and bring the business to him! It's all quite frustrating, but I'm hoping by year's end I'll be back on line. BTW who is "our Kenny"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 17, 2009 Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Guest EarlBurrellPhoto, Take a look here Interest in M9 weakening?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
noah_addis Posted November 17, 2009 Share #62 Posted November 17, 2009 In comparing M9, M8 and film images I've noticed that the M9 files have a different look (obviously). The M9 files look more digital in some ways than the M8. The extra resolution and resulting lower noise (at a given print size and ISO) makes the prints look smoother. Some may prefer this look. I like a bit of noise/grain texture in my prints, so the M8 files, when printed at medium or large sizes, had a bit of noise that I found quite pleasing to the eye. The M9 files don't have it, at least not at the same print sizes and ISOs. To get the same look you need to print much larger and/or shoot at higher ISO. Of course it's easy enough to add noise/grain in post, while it's more difficult to take it away. I'm not going to get too much into the film/M9 comparison since it always stirs a fight. But I have found my lenses do act how I would expect on the M9 compared to on a film camera. The DOF, ease of focus and obviously the angle of view are all the same. Any difference in the character of the lenses, I think, comes from the medium itself. No digital camera will ever exactly duplicate film, though some of the software plugins come close. Try adding some noise to your M9 files and/or printing really large (I mean 24-inch wide or larger). It may be an eye-opening experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 17, 2009 Share #63 Posted November 17, 2009 The X-1 flabbergasts me. Why anyone would prefer it over a second-hand M8, I don't get. Size, weight, price, those kind of things I guess. I don't think the X1 is aimed at the M8/9 crowd anyway - at least not when it's chosen as the primary system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 17, 2009 Share #64 Posted November 17, 2009 The X-1 flabbergasts me. Why anyone would prefer it over a second-hand M8, I don't get. ...and precisely because it isn't a secondhand M8... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 18, 2009 Share #65 Posted November 18, 2009 I agree. Leica's biggest faux-pas from a business standpoint is to have let the momentum slip and not have struck whilst the iron was hot. It's childishly naiive to think Leica isn't already hard at work on the M9's successor, and guaranteed the months delivery of the M9 is delayed are coming straight out of its product life, not pushing the successor's intro back. This is something I really don't understand. Why announce a camera and basically have NONE available for sale and none after 2 months. The iron has gone cold for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 18, 2009 Share #66 Posted November 18, 2009 This is something I really don't understand. Why announce a camera and basically have NONE available for sale and none after 2 months. Eh? This is some use of the term "none" with which I am not familiar. Or do you think everyone here is lying about having their M9s...? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirdwheel Posted November 18, 2009 Share #67 Posted November 18, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't think interest is weakening. The M9 is available in my part of the world - Singapore - but at a premium of SGD 11,388. However, only a handful came into our market here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 18, 2009 Share #68 Posted November 18, 2009 Eh? This is some use of the term "none" with which I am not familiar. Or do you think everyone here is lying about having their M9s...? Regards, Bill Just the response I'd expect from you. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 18, 2009 Share #69 Posted November 18, 2009 Just the response I'd expect from you.Thanks. You're welcome. It would probably help if you didn't write unsubstantiated bollocks. I really don't understand the memory-card-half-empty negativity that you seem to enjoy wallowing in. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrice Posted November 18, 2009 Share #70 Posted November 18, 2009 Thirdwheel, that's the same as the Aussie price. Although it's slightly cheaper from Kayell in QLD. As for weaking interest, I think a lot of the excitement has abated, and those who have their cameras are posting less and shooting more, these are likely those who were most vocal about the camera before release and thus placed early pre-orders and already have their cameras. Just my hypothesis. I'm not terribly surprised by the delay, happens with every hotly anticipated camera release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted November 18, 2009 Share #71 Posted November 18, 2009 This is something I really don't understand. Why announce a camera and basically have NONE available for sale and none after 2 months. The iron has gone cold for sure. I don't think the iron has gone cold, just a small maker struggling to keep up with demand in a down market. 'Demand?' unprecedented -- particularly at the time they began production. This certainly isn't the Nintendo Wii, we are discussing, though if you will recall, the Wii is easy to build Plastic junk (fun junk), but it has always been scarce in almost every market. By design. Apple does the same thing, trickling to keep demand bottled. But I don't think Leica meant to not make enough. They just can't. I have recently taken delivery, and with the help of this forum, have discovered why the few M9 idiosyncrasies I have encountered are exactly that. Thanks forum friends. In any case. I was on only one waiting list, and the Product despite a dirty sensor, and a left border of Magenta, with a 15 CV, is IMO, this tool is a more solid attempt than my M8, M8.2, and may certainly be considered a keeper. Thankfully 'The Third Time is a charm', now that Leica has figured out how to do it... (make a FF Range with a Photographic <M> Feel), I will not be projecting disdain that the next iteration will blow my M9 away, and leave me with remorse, but that I can enjoy it now, and prior to the next acquisition... Will I be able to afford, and appreciate it?, may be valid concerns. In the end, Leica is delivering on the promise that is really unspoken in Digital Photography, that a Camera Maker should make a product as enjoyable as the classic film M's; a scarce experience today, not unlike to whole notes of a Linn LP12, with a Glowing Tube Amplifier. Thanks for the chance to still use manual focus; Nay, manual anything. -Max Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDyl Posted November 18, 2009 Share #72 Posted November 18, 2009 You can bet the M9 shortages are driving Leica crazy right now internally - they finally have a digital hit and yet they can't fill orders. I'm sure Leica is acutely aware that they are losing sales as potential buyers or folks on the fence look at other options that are more readily available. The dedicated base will likely wait as long as it takes to get an M9, but others will not... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anupmc Posted November 18, 2009 Share #73 Posted November 18, 2009 <snip> This certainly isn't the Nintendo Wii, we are discussing, though if you will recall, the Wii is easy to build Plastic junk (fun junk), but it has always been scarce in almost every market. By design. Apple does the same thing, trickling to keep demand bottled. <snip> -Max Max, while I'm sure there are brands and products out there where demand is artificially driven up by intentionally constricting supply, I don't believe for one second Leica is among them, and I know for a fact neither are Apple nor Nintendo. The latter two are simply "held hostage" by issues within their Supply chain for critical components such as flash memory or RAM chips. In fact, any vendor who's not totally vertically integrated in their manufacturing will have similar issues in being dependent on external suppliers. No conspiracy involved. IMHO, the one mistake Leica made was in announcing "immediate availability". All the PR could have remained 09/09/09 with full technical spec disclosure, but availability should have been announced for Nov'09. The 09/09/09 PR should also have included a corresponding dramatic price reduction of the M8 for a significant enough price differential with the M9. That would have ensured the M8 would continue to sell despite it's limited life-span, and probably open up a whole new lower-end market segment for Leica kit in the process. But I suspect Leica would have issues around resourcing for M8 vs M9 assembly, so probably wouldn't have worked anyway. Bottom line, I don't really see how Leica could have done anything differently Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted November 18, 2009 Share #74 Posted November 18, 2009 Well said. This (and the rather slow processor for an 18mp camera) is the very reason why I haven't ordered one yet. I believe Leica decided to go with a larger M8 sensor (3 years old) version instead of going with the new Maestro technology simply to avoid cannibalizing their S2 sales. Wouldn't be surprised if that option will be available at next years Photokina. Do you know the difference between the Maestro chip, and the sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted November 18, 2009 Share #75 Posted November 18, 2009 I can see clear that many here who didn't get their camera yet were hoping just to be able to enter a store and buy the camera at the moment. Probably things didn't go that way, and now we hear the whining, Someone is tryin' to justify the fact that he doesn't have the camera, sayin' that's not good. As a matter of fact, I can see three categories of people here: 1)Those who already own the camera; they are mostly satisfied, as that I can't see the used market growing up (that could be the only symptom in M9's interest weakening IMHO). 2)Those who let a deposit and are more or less patiently waiting, 3)And then there's the last category: the arrogants. The arrogants, are those who didn't left a deposit for the camera, and got upset discovering a pre-order list. Then, they didn't accept the fact to be the lasts to be able to have the camera, and now are criticizing it because, like the children, when they can't get what they want, in the way they want, they choose to have tantrums. Obviously the arrogant can't remember the waiting list to get a 5DmkII, or a D700 or a D3 when those cameras hit the market. I can get you the things clear: two moths waiting for the FIRST D700 after its announcement here, and almost THREE months for the 5DmkII. I preordered my camera, without the need of a deposit, and I got mine after few weeks. I must have been lucky, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleskin Posted November 18, 2009 Share #76 Posted November 18, 2009 My interest weakened when I had a chance to show prints to a friend of mine who is also a photographer taken with my M8 and those taken with the M9 at the Photo Expo Plus. I used two legendary lenses: The Noctilux f1.0 latest version and the 35mm Summicron "King of Bokeh". The consensus was comparing prints made from the M8 and the M9 was like comparing apples and oranges (I used an Epson 3800 with Exhibition Fiber Paper 17"x22"!!!). For the most part, Leica's high speed lens offerings often make anything above ISO 640 irrelevant for 90% of any shooting one can do. The M8 prints hold up to the M9, and in the case of the Noctilux, I believe the M8 produces sharper results!!! I have used my M8 extensively and was considering the M9 as a replacement and my M8 would be a backup. Now I am thinking about buying a mint M8.2 and waiting until the M9.2 or M10 comes out. I believe the M8.2 makes more economic sense here, and the M9's improvements are not large enough over the M8 to justify spending $7,000 USD. If I did not have an M8, maybe I would go for the M9, or maybe not. The M8.2 right now seems really attractive, especially for a fraction of the price!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted November 18, 2009 Share #77 Posted November 18, 2009 Dear Maurizio, I think I fit in your category 2, as I haven't gone ballistic, but I did order on Sept 9 at announcement, put down a deposit, and I am still waiting. Where I differ from your description is the "more or less patiently" part as the repeated descriptions of how good the camera is simply make me more impatient. It looks like finally by the end of this week I will have it (more than 10 weeks from order), but part of the frustration was the seeming haphazard distribution pattern. Shops that had long lists didn't have cameras while others had cameras that one could walk in and buy. Next time around, Leica might consider an effort to adjust its distribution to allocate cameras in line with the specific projected demand (and wait list) at each shop. As for the "arrogants" (which is a very harsh term), a better term might be the "ignorants" who couldn't figure out that there would be wait lists and that dealers might want some money up front. On that last point, this was the first time I ever had to make a deposit as I always had a good enough relationship with a local dealer to avoid it (M8 and 5d Mk I come to mind) but unfortunately they did not survive the economic downturn and I have to form new relationships. Others may also have been surprised at the idea of a deposit. Regards, Alan I can see clear that many here who didn't get their camera yet were hoping just to be able to enter a store and buy the camera at the moment.Probably things didn't go that way, and now we hear the whining, Someone is tryin' to justify the fact that he doesn't have the camera, sayin' that's not good. As a matter of fact, I can see three categories of people here: 1)Those who already own the camera; they are mostly satisfied, as that I can't see the used market growing up (that could be the only symptom in M9's interest weakening IMHO). 2)Those who let a deposit and are more or less patiently waiting, 3)And then there's the last category: the arrogants. The arrogants, are those who didn't left a deposit for the camera, and got upset discovering a pre-order list. Then, they didn't accept the fact to be the lasts to be able to have the camera, and now are criticizing it because, like the children, when they can't get what they want, in the way they want, they choose to have tantrums. Obviously the arrogant can't remember the waiting list to get a 5DmkII, or a D700 or a D3 when those cameras hit the market. I can get you the things clear: two moths waiting for the FIRST D700 after its announcement here, and almost THREE months for the 5DmkII. I preordered my camera, without the need of a deposit, and I got mine after few weeks. I must have been lucky, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 18, 2009 Share #78 Posted November 18, 2009 A lot to know? Don't you belong to any prof. associations? Or am I mistaken that you're also a pro? Me? Professional? No! I do work professionally sometimes, but less often recently. I need quite a lot of convincing that it'll be worthwhile If I was a member of a professional organisation I think I'd be embarrassed (and rather bored) asking over 100 pros what they thought about an S2 (or an M9 come to that). Good luck with your acrimonious website. BTW who is "our Kenny"? Kenny Burrell (Kenneth Earl Burrell) - jazz guitarist - do some googling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted November 19, 2009 Share #79 Posted November 19, 2009 Alan, thank you for sharing your opinion and pov! Anyway, I guess you proved to be patient as well. As to be precise, I didn't left any deposit, but my camera has been in order since june/july, yet when the dealer called me "crazy" as for the "arrogants", I know that sounds harsh, unfortunately I didn't have the right word to translate the term from the italian. Anyway thank you. What I can say in favour of Leica is that most of the dealers received the M9s in relation to the M8s sold (at least so I was told as for Italy). I guess Leica tried to "thank" or "privilege" small, loyal and "historical" dealers, shipping to them the first productions. Most of the dealers couldn't have the faintest idea that a new camera was coming till 09/09 so I guess that a "somehow world list" of orders was hard to be compiled and satisfied after. It seems a big effort IMHO for such a small company, to get the production flows in by the end of the year. My 2cents ciao Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spersky Posted November 19, 2009 Share #80 Posted November 19, 2009 BTW, I waited for 4 months for the 1DsMark II many years ago. I guess it happens to all good cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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