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Sean Reid's X1 Part 2 Review is up

c6gowin

By c6gowin
in Leica X

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nhabedi

nhabedi

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You are correct about it being more difficult with a larger sensor but Panasonic has shown that it can be done

 

For which camera? If you're talking about the G-1 or the GF-1, don't forget that the area of the X1's sensor is about 65% bigger, so if contrast AF speed were proportional to the sensor area, then even with the same technology the X1 would need significantly longer to focus.

 

I don't have a dSLR, but it would be interesting to get numbers for those for comparison. I remember from reviews that I've read that contrast AF (i.e. while using live view) on dSLRs is notoriously slow.

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hexar

hexar

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Dear Sean,

 

Thanks again for time and effort to answer so many relevant questions.

BUT...... you must be keeping something under the hood here ! No way that you have not discussed in your teleconference call yesterday the AF issue with the people from LEICA. One of the key issues in this talk must have been about the biggest hick up of the camera and your review THE AF SPEED. I can`t imagine that you have not asked them what can be done to increase AF speed. so please could you tell us the reaction and perspective on this from your talks yesterday ?

I know LEICA is not happy when you will tell us that the relative slow AF is the nature of the camera and this cannot be changed but I and I think many others do get this feeling more and more by the hour and it is essential I believe that a fast statement about possible improvent in final release can be done or not. We rely on answers from people like you as when I personally write to LEICA an e-mail I just do not get any response.

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Guest stnami

Guest stnami

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AF (i.e. while using live view) on dSLRs is notoriously slow.
Not sure of the type of AF but the D90 is dead slow . Only useful for macro via a tripod, I think it is there for the video not focusing stills
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Ecaton

Ecaton

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What do we really need super AF speed for in a fixed focal length, 35mm equiv. camera? Shooting pics of kids playing soccer, portraits of fast moving pets and grandmas, the Sunday visit to the local zoo:rolleyes:.

For streetshooting, zone focusing is preferable, i.e. ability to pre-focus the camera (snap mode a la Ricoh or option to assign pre focus to the AEL/AFL button a la EP1 ) pus clear focus scale indications and no shutter lag beats AF. If Leica could include these features, the X1 might be a great street shooter.

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ottocrat

ottocrat

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Initially I was a bit irritated at the constant emphasis on street shooting that everyone uses when talking about the X1. Surely there's a lot more to a 35mm focal length than that? But the more I reflect on it the more I'm wondering whether, actually, I'm allowing myself to be seduced by a portable Leica with a fixed prime lens and that, actually, you're right - this camera is all about zone focusing and street shooting. I've always shot at 50mm or equivalent, and I think I might be mistaken in succumbing to my attraction for a camera that looks perfect in every respect except that it's just a little too wide for my style. I guess I could learn to love 35mm, but that's probably a bit of a gamble on which to stake 1600 euro.

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Guest stnami

Guest stnami

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.

Gone are the days of Leiter, Friedlander, Winogrand, Frank , Eggleston when life was of a slower pace.

These days you need a camera that responds quickly, there is no time to fiddle with apertures and speed, lags etc. The photographer out in the street is no longer a friend, he/she is tolerated with suspicion and your 28/35mm is starting to become a very much in your face focal length, with the portrait length lens is becoming a good friend in the streets __________________

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coup de foudre

coup de foudre

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Initially I was a bit irritated at the constant emphasis on street shooting that everyone uses when talking about the X1. Surely there's a lot more to a 35mm focal length than that? But the more I reflect on it the more I'm wondering whether, actually, I'm allowing myself to be seduced by a portable Leica with a fixed prime lens and that, actually, you're right - this camera is all about zone focusing and street shooting. I've always shot at 50mm or equivalent, and I think I might be mistaken in succumbing to my attraction for a camera that looks perfect in every respect except that it's just a little too wide for my style. I guess I could learn to love 35mm, but that's probably a bit of a gamble on which to stake 1600 euro.

 

the X1 camera *is* about zone focusing, f/8 and all that. but i can do that on my M.

 

what i've been looking for -- i call it the anti-RF but i really mean i want it for all the things the M can't do or doesn't do well -- is also for more than an f/8 shooter. i want low light, night shots, probably in bars, outdoors cafes, etc. and i'd like to shoot wide open. the X1 at f/2.8 does not appeal to me (i realise this is completely subjective, but it honestly annoys me) so i'm searching elsewhere.

 

at first i thought the new Ricoh GXR 50mm was too long for me, until i realised that's been what i've been shooting with day in, day out (35 on the M8) and that i really like this FOV... whilst it's wrapped in a package that is nowhere near as attractive (or small, especially if you consider the lens does extend), what it has inside is more of what i've been looking for (which, with Ricoh's snap settings, does not preclude street at f/8).

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sean_reid

sean_reid

Posted
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Sean,

 

You are correct about it being more difficult with a larger sensor but Panasonic has shown that it can be done; however, there is still a difference in speed with different lenses too.

 

Yes, Pansonic has done that and I have some interesting information relating to that which I'll publish in both the X1 and GF1 articles when the text is done. It turns out that the difference in the two sensors themselves is important here.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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I don't have a dSLR, but it would be interesting to get numbers for those for comparison. I remember from reviews that I've read that contrast AF (i.e. while using live view) on dSLRs is notoriously slow.

 

Yes, that has often been observed.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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Dear Sean,

 

Thanks again for time and effort to answer so many relevant questions.

BUT...... you must be keeping something under the hood here ! No way that you have not discussed in your teleconference call yesterday the AF issue with the people from LEICA. One of the key issues in this talk must have been about the biggest hick up of the camera and your review THE AF SPEED. I can`t imagine that you have not asked them what can be done to increase AF speed. so please could you tell us the reaction and perspective on this from your talks yesterday ?

I know LEICA is not happy when you will tell us that the relative slow AF is the nature of the camera and this cannot be changed but I and I think many others do get this feeling more and more by the hour and it is essential I believe that a fast statement about possible improvent in final release can be done or not. We rely on answers from people like you as when I personally write to LEICA an e-mail I just do not get any response.

 

You're welcome.

 

A couple comments:

 

1) We moved the conference to this morning because of scheduling conflicts

 

2) Not everything from a conference like that will become public knowledge but I will be publishing further info. on AF in the X1 and GF1

 

3) Patience is a virtue. More information will be coming (from me and presumably from other sources) and the camera is not available till January anyway. Rushing in a review or article is always a bad idea. The best quality information will come when I've had time to digest, revise, ask more questions, etc.

 

4) I have not ever said that AF speed in the X1 cannot be improved

 

4) Patience is a virtue.

 

5) Patience is a virtue.

 

If works gets intense I may disappear from the forums for awhile but I'll be back.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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What do we really need super AF speed for in a fixed focal length, 35mm equiv. camera? Shooting pics of kids playing soccer, portraits of fast moving pets and grandmas, the Sunday visit to the local zoo:rolleyes:.

For streetshooting, zone focusing is preferable, i.e. ability to pre-focus the camera (snap mode a la Ricoh or option to assign pre focus to the AEL/AFL button a la EP1 ) pus clear focus scale indications and no shutter lag beats AF. If Leica could include these features, the X1 might be a great street shooter.

 

Zone focusing is also my personal preference (for fast work outdoors *with any camera*) but some do use AF instead. Different strokes.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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jsrockit

jsrockit

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the X1 at f/2.8 does not appeal to me (i realise this is completely subjective, but it honestly annoys me) so i'm searching elsewhere.

 

While I have backed off from wanting the X1 as well (thinking M8 now), if the high ISO settings are good on this camera, f/2.8 being slow doesn't mean as much... unless you mean you don't like its "bokeh."

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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"Gone are the days of Leiter, Friedlander, Winogrand, Frank , Eggleston when life was of a slower pace.

These days you need a camera that responds quickly, there is no time to fiddle with apertures and speed, lags etc. The photographer out in the street is no longer a friend, he/she is tolerated with suspicion and your 28/35mm is starting to become a very much in your face focal length, with the portrait length lens is becoming a good friend in the streets"

 

I'm not sure who wrote this but I just saw Lee Friedlander a couple weeks ago and he is still shooting with a Bessa. Frank, Eggleston, Papageorge, Roma, etc. are all still working - mostly with RF cameras.

 

The X1 responds quickly when focused manually. The problematic shutter lag is now there only if a review image is still being displayed and hopefully FW changes will banish that. The photographers listed in that post are mostly fast and have always needed cameras with fast reflexes. Eggleston's style is a little different - anyone want a link to a good Eggleston movie?

 

Lastly, lets not confuse the issue. The fact that *I personally* do a lot of zone focused work at F/8 or thereabouts (with the X1 and many other cameras) does not mean that's all the camera can do. That's just something I've been doing with it because I have certain ways of working. To balance things out, I added (to the review) a set of F/2.8 high ISO still pictures that were all done using AF.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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hexar

hexar

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I do believe though that we have to accept that, after several proofs of this fact, contrast detect AF in combination with bigger sensors is a NO GO for people that want to work with fast AF. The fact that PANASONIC with their GF1 have managed a considerable faster AF than LEICA and SIGMA for example gives us some hope for the future but we have to acknowledge that the M4/3rd sensors are considerably smaller that the ones used in mentioned camera`s. Let`s see what SAMSUNG and SONY will come up with in the coming months. One thing is for sure it will remain difficult to find a grown up digital replacement for my KONICA HEXAR AF that I wanted to replace with the LEICA X1. 35mm is my sweet spot focal length and that I cannot change ! ( I refuse to believe that a PENTAX K7 with 21mm limited pancake can be the best possible replacement in the near future and the 17mm OLY lens is not up to my standard)

Anyone who has a better alternative for me i so welcome to make a suggestion .

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coup de foudre

coup de foudre

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While I have backed off from wanting the X1 as well (thinking M8 now), if the high ISO settings are good on this camera, f/2.8 being slow doesn't mean as much... unless you mean you don't like its "bokeh."

the X1 high ISO looks wonderful... i am talking 100% about bokeh bokeh bokeh and that is so subective that even Sean has wisely decided not to comment on it any more :p

 

i have honestly learned not to even to listen to what other people think (unless they are praising one of my images) and just judge for myself...

 

furthermore, even the greatest lenses can let you down whilst others can surprise you with their some-time beauty. it really can vary from image to image, lighting conditions, etc. however, because i am such a wide open freak (and, no, even the Ricoh isn't as fast as i'd really like), i've gotten much better at judging quickly whether a lens does it for me or not. my number one rule is that i won't even consider a camera/lens, if the bokeh is a distraction. if it's glorious to boot, all the better!

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nhabedi

nhabedi

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One thing is for sure it will remain difficult to find a grown up digital replacement for my KONICA HEXAR AF that I wanted to replace with the LEICA X1.

 

Good point, actually. I'm sure this has been asked before, but I don't remember seeing a convincing answer. Why don't they use active infrared AF for digital compacts? Is it not accurate enough due to the crop factor?

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