S2 shoot and some P45+ comparisons

[tashley]

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I have thought long and hard about whether to post this and on balance as you can see have decided to do so.

 

My doubts are based on the fact that the conditions under which I shot were absolutely not conducive to anything like a fair methodology, and that I genuinely believe that issues relating to technique, exposure, method of RAW development and so on will likely have effects greater than any inherent differences between the file qualities of these two cameras. Nonetheless I had an interesting day at Leica's studio above their Bruton Place store, met quite a few of the great and the good (some very well known photographers were there along with many Leica folk and press people) and played with some really interesting gear and I know that some people at least are keen to hear some impressions and see some files.

 

Caveats:

 

1) There was a queue to use the studio setup and because, as is so often the case, shooting tethered with my Phamiya AFDIII / P45+ combo proved to be a very glitchy process, I didn't get enough shots with both cameras to make very fair comparisons.

 

2) I know my Phase gear pretty well but had only shot an S2 very briefly, several weeks ago - and like every serious camera it takes some getting to know. Consequently I am certain I didn't always get the best from it!

 

3) Very importantly, the FW on the S2 is NOT the finished version and though I was very pleasantly surprised by the higher ISO performance, I do believe that it will improve further before release.

 

4) I am not a professional tester - just someone who needs to shoot MF sometimes and has some relevant experience.

 

I chose only to use the 70mm lens on the S2 and the 80mm kit lens on the Phamiya.

 

I shot RAW in both cameras, processed both in C1 Pro 5 with defaults other than some re-jigging of WB and exposure then exported to 16bit TIFF to LR2 for cropping and final export as 90% quality JPEGs. I then uploaded these (some 100% crops, some full file sizes) to my Zenfolio account in SRGB. All files are there for inspection.

 

OBSERVATIONS

 

IQ aside, it is very clear that the S2 is a much nicer user experience than the AFDIII and since I have also shot a studio session with the brand new Phase body, I can say that the S2 beats it hands down from my perspective.

 

This is no surprise whatsoever. The shutter is much, much less jerky and quieter in the S2 than either of the Phase bodies, the feel and ergonomics similarly greatly superior IMHO. I also suspect that the AF is superior and I like the fact that it doesn't hunt on every frame. Once it knows it has focus, it stops searching at every opportunity. However, when I shot the new Phase body recently I was not aware of a Custom Function that allows for a choice between Fast or Accurate (in effect) AF and I had it set to Fast. I reserve judgement therefore until I have used both systems with the right level of knowledge and experience.

 

But if you hold the S2 in one hand and the Phamiya in the other, set them to the same shutter speed and then fire them both, you will be in doubt as to which one is the silk purse. And I predict that tripod tests will show that you need less weighty tripod and head combos for the S2 setup than the Phase.

 

Don't forget, however, that the P45+ can do one hour exposures with effectively no noise, that its sensor comes off and you can then whack it onto a technical or field camera and that the price of entry for the S2 and one lens would pay for an upgrade to a P60+ and leave you change... and you wouldn't have to drop a fortune on selling your Phase hear second hand. Just worth bearing this in mind!

 

Some odd thoughts:

 

The S2's continuous AF failed my 'point it at a slow moving taxi and see if it can track it' test. I also need more practice to be sure that some regular AF failures were my fault (which I suspect) and not the camera's.

 

The S2 may look like a DSLR but it isn't. With the standard lens there is almost no DOF and in order to create such you have to stop down to the extent that outside in broad daylight you will probably have to pop up to ISO 320 (at least, probably higher) or risk shooting below 1/250th and I would say that like Dave Farkas, whilst I can get some great shots at 1/90th and above, 1/250th is the minimum where I'd feel really safe.

 

AWB is not to be trusted but then I have never had a camera on which it is. It's ok though.

 

There will, before final release, be locks on the top rotating dial and on the thumbwheel. Were it not for this assurance I'd have got my P60 this afternoon because that pesky thumbwheel has a mind of its own and is constantly switching from A to Pshift mode without my wanting it to!

 

I took the camera out in moderately heavy rain and neither it, nor the Leica staff, had any problem with that at all!

 

Right, off to have my dinner. The files are uploading as we speak and I will post them and some additional comments on them in an hour or two!

 

Best

 

Tim

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[c6gowin]

Tim,

 

You are brave to post comparisons even with the disclaimer, as some may complain about test method, etc., but I appreciate your effort and promise not to complain. It sounds like your studio shoot was similar to the one I attended in NYC in that there were a number of interested parties waiting their turn with the camera which leaves little time for good comparison. Its good that you were able to take the camera outside. Looking forward to the photos.

[sdai]

The S2 may look like a DSLR but it isn't. With the standard lens there is almost no DOF and in order to create such you have to stop down to the extent that outside in broad daylight you will probably have to pop up to ISO 320 (at least, probably higher) or risk shooting below 1/250th and I would say that like Dave Farkas, whilst I can get some great shots at 1/90th and above, 1/250th is the minimum where I'd feel really safe.

 

Thanks a lot for your effort, Tim.

 

I've always said that the S2 will be a tripod camera even in broad light but nobody on the Leica side wants to admit that because the DSLR shooting experience is their number 1 or may be 2 selling point.

 

I think the condition may varies depending on what you shoot and your working style, the result and experience can be so different but I almost never go below 1/400 for handheld day shots when using these 20MP+ cameras.

 

My only brief experience with the S2 was a pre-prod model Leica brought along on their road show, AF is somewhat sluggish in a dark room and the shutter wouldn't even fire after several presses, and when I put it down it suddenly fired, at one point I even thought the Leica rep in the room remotely locked it up when the camera passed into my hands. I didn't post these knowing it's not a fully functional model.

 

I'm glad that this monster finally land in some trusted hands ... I'm eagerly waiting for your pictures. Cheers!

[peterv]

Thanks Tim. Looking forward to your photo's!

[georg]

DoF is a product of simple optical laws. Given the same circle of confusion, the S2-DoF is 1/2 stop "behind" 35mm-full-frame and 1 full stop for a 36x48mm-system (like most MFDBs) - not a major difference. So a f2.5-shot with the 70mm looks similar to a f2-shot with a 50mm on a full-frame-35mm-camera DoF-wise.

 

But for serious print-work DoF, acceptable high-ISO, lens-quality and non-shaken-shutter-speeds are relative terms...

[tashley]

OK, here goes:

 

The files are at

 

Zenfolio | Tim Ashley | S2 Gallery with P45+ comparisons

 

Oh, and you can download the full-dimensioned JPEG files but not the DNG's since they are vast and I am on rural broadband tonight!

 

Here's one for starters - I liked in particular the subtle tonality with which the background is rendered in the full-sized DNG file. This is of course not visible in an SRGB file at 1100 pixels wide but hey ho...

 

 

There are plenty of other files there but nothing with any artistic merit at all so please don't expect anything wow! The series starts with a few S2 and P45+ shots, 90% quality JPEGS of the entire file in SRGB processed as in the OP and with some 100% crops. Then there are some random outside shots at various ISOs up to 1250, some full file, some 100% crop. Zenfolio will let you see the EXIF so you can see what is what. Any questions, please ask but do please please please be aware of the caveats in the OP above.

 

FULL DISCLOSURE:

 

I sometimes get to see early releases of gear from manufacturers but other than the odd very short term loaner, a couple of sandwiches and a banana I have never been paid or rewarded by any camera manufacturer. I even declined the wine at lunch today.

[sdai]

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You don't need to check EXIF, once you figure out one P45+ shot you can pick out all the S2 shots from the thumbnails ... ok, let me exclude the outdoor shots.

 

One thing surprises me is the CA in #17. Thanks a lot, Tim. I'll wait for the DNGs.

[c6gowin]

Declined the wine? Trying to stay in top form for the shoot? :D

[tashley]

You don't need to check EXIF, once you figure out one P45+ shot you can pick out all the S2 shots from the thumbnails ... ok, let me exclude the outdoor shots.

 

One thing surprises me is the CA in #17. Thanks a lot, Tim. I'll wait for the DNGs.

 

Well, the aspect ratios are a bit of a give away! As for the CA in #17 - I can't think of any camera/lens combo I have ever used that would have avoided that at F2.5 but I do agree that some of the expectations set up have implied that you'd just not ever see CA.

 

Best

 

T

[c6gowin]

Your ISO 1250 photos look better than what I got just 2 weeks ago. That is promising.

[tashley]

Your ISO 1250 photos look better than what I got just 2 weeks ago. That is promising.

 

They are surprisingly good I think, and I do think they'll be better by release date. They are especially good when there's plenty of evenly-lit detail and texture in shot. As you'd expect.

[tashley]

Declined the wine? Trying to stay in top form for the shoot? :D

 

Sad git that I am, that was after the shoot and whilst I was chatting to the other guys there. Some really, really top people so i would say that the beau monde is really giving this one a chance.

[dfarkas]

Well, the aspect ratios are a bit of a give away! As for the CA in #17 - I can't think of any camera/lens combo I have ever used that would have avoided that at F2.5 but I do agree that some of the expectations set up have implied that you'd just not ever see CA.

 

Best

 

T

 

Tim,

 

Nice series. You may want to try putting that file in LR instead of C1 and turning the defringe control to All Edges. According to Leica what you are seeing here isn't CA, but rather a fringing artifact from the sensor demosaicing algorithm. This will be set as the default value in the DNG files once the firmware is finalized.

 

Worth a shot, right? FWIW, any test shots I had that showed this, were "cured" with this simple correction.

 

Thanks,

 

David

[c6gowin]

... Some really, really top people so i would say that the beau monde is really giving this one a chance.

 

There were some top people at the NYC event as well.

[ptomsu]

Great test, many thanks!

[carstenw]

But if you hold the S2 in one hand and the Phamiya in the other, set them to the same shutter speed and then fire them both, you will be in doubt as to which one is the silk purse.

 

Can you confirm that this is what you meant to write? It sounds incongruous when compared to the rest of what you wrote.

[tashley]

Can you confirm that this is what you meant to write? It sounds incongruous when compared to the rest of what you wrote.

 

Eagle-eyed as ever Carsten - of course I meant the opposite! I can only hope that the context makes this clear, since I can no longer edit the OP. In other words it is very clear that the S2 feels silky, discrete and smooth whereas the Phamiya III is.... rather less so.

 

So it should have read:

 

"But if you hold the S2 in one hand and the Phamiya in the other, set them to the same shutter speed and then fire them both, you will be in no doubt as to which one is the silk purse. And I predict that tripod tests will show that you need less weighty tripod and head combos for the S2 setup than the Phase."

[tashley]

Tim,

 

Nice series. You may want to try putting that file in LR instead of C1 and turning the defringe control to All Edges. According to Leica what you are seeing here isn't CA, but rather a fringing artifact from the sensor demosaicing algorithm. This will be set as the default value in the DNG files once the firmware is finalized.

 

Worth a shot, right? FWIW, any test shots I had that showed this, were "cured" with this simple correction.

 

Thanks,

 

David

 

 

Thanks David - I am so unconcerned by this and so certain that it is easily removed that though I noticed it I didn't remark on it at all until another poster raised the question. I also applaud your rigour in not falling into the trap of referring to all coloured edge-effects as 'CA' because as you rightly point out, they aren't!

 

BTW I meant to say in my OP and I say it loudly here: please everyone, read David Farkas's review because it is comprehensive, fair and accurate and my own post is merely intended to add some footnotes to it!

 

Best

 

Tim

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[tjv]

As you say, it's hard to draw any conclusions other than that in the limited tests you've shown it seems the S2 is the equal if not slightly better than the P45+.

[R10dreamer]

I just wish someone would take some interesting images when they test these cameras. Back light. Side light, Hi-key, colorful fabrics, multiple ethnicity for different skin tones under the same light, flare, something/anything but an iron fence, bored model with her leg cut off.