On coding wide angle lenses

[hrosell]

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I would like to quickly summarize how the solutions given by Leica are affecting myself:

 

1. Leica seems to have solved the streaking and the green blobs issues, so that's OK for me.

 

2. I sincerely appreciate that Leica stopped shipments prior to the expected delivery of my M8 – this spared me and my dealer a lot of trouble. (I had it on order since 6 weeks back or more...)

 

3. I have no problems with the necessity of using IR filters (I have used filters on Leica lens since I bought them owing to environmental reasons).

 

However, and although I am not a technical man and rather experiencing in a marveled way what others more gifted like Guy, Sean, Jamie, David, etc. are achieving, from reading several threads I assume that apart from using the IR filters it will be mandatory to code the wide angle lens (I have three: 24/28/35 all uncoded) to correct the cyan corners and I suppose also vignetting.

 

Since this is sort of a compulsory part of the "fnal" solution, and since the previous advertising of the M8 mentioned quite clearly that "almost all" uncoded lenses could be used at the only expense of not getting the benefit of what I guess refers to the exif info, my query is:

 

– if all non-coded lenses can be used even with IR flters but now we must except the wide angles

 

– and that we will have to re-code the wide angles only to make them fully usable

 

– and considering what I've read in other threads that the details of the lens being used could be included in the menu, even if the procedure could become a little awkward for the user (as it happens with other DSLRs)

 

– and that possibly one of the main reasons is to avoid customers purchasing "off-brand" lens

 

– and taking into account that there surely will be plenty of owners of te M8 not living neither in Usa nor Europe or even close to any populated center which will make it extremely difficult and/or expensive to have the lens coded

 

– would it be too weird if Leica charged for an upgrade of the firmware to be downloaded via the web on a lens by lens basis?

 

I mean, if it is really possible to have it on the menu, why spending all the couriering back and forth plus the re-coding plus the time (and the risk of damaging the lens while in transit).

 

I would rather pay a sum to Leica to get this thing solved in a much easier way, and they would also beneft from charging those who are intending to use non-Leica glasses...

 

Cheers, after all

 

H.

[jrc]

I just today stuck five lenses in the mail ($26 for registered, Minnesota to New Jersey) to get them coded ($125 each in US) and don't expect to see them back for a month, when I'll send in the other three (for another $25 in postage, and $375 in coding charges.) The total for eight lenses will be $1,000, and probably two months with only a partial set of lenses; I'm hoping to get an early recall number to get the camera fixed, so that it's done when I'm already missing a bunch of lenses, and don't yet have the filters.

 

A menu-driven option would solve many, many problems -- including some PR problems for Leica.

 

JC

[jelderfield]

Maybe Leica should pay for the damn coding of all wide angle lenses - all lenses were supposed to work fine without the coding - weren't they, according to the advertising and PR literature. The coding was supposed to be optional. But now it will be mandatory if you use the IR filters and want to avoit the cyan corners. And you HAVE to have an IR filter to avoid the magenta issues. Maybe Leica should lower the price of the camera by about $400 so that I can get my 3 lenses coded. OR make the solution via firmware. Leica needs to step up to the plate on this!!!!!!

Jonathan Elderfield Photography

[mike prevette]

I was so shocked when I found out that there isn't a menu based option. It just screams of marketing BS. I refuse to pay so much for something that is such a simple software fix. Having a manual vignetting correction slider and vignetting midpoint slider that can be assigned to lens profiles would be a fantastic fix. It would allow me to DECIDE how much of the vignetting to take away. This is especially important considering lenses vignette differently at different apertures.

 

_mike

[hrosell]

I just today stuck five lenses in the mail ($26 for registered, Minnesota to New Jersey) to get them coded ($125 each in US) and don't expect to see them back for a month, when I'll send in the other three (for another $25 in postage, and $375 in coding charges.) The total for eight lenses will be $1,000, and probably two months with only a partial set of lenses; I'm hoping to get an early recall number to get the camera fixed, so that it's done when I'm already missing a bunch of lenses, and don't yet have the filters.

 

A menu-driven option would solve many, many problems -- including some PR problems for Leica.

 

JC

 

jrc, to courier documents from Argentina to Uruguay costs US$ 75... can you imagine what would be the cost of sending three lens to NJ or Solms?

I agree with you that the menu-driven option should be offered, IMHO this is what Leica have to do, with oir without "off-brand" lenses involved...

[hrosell]

Maybe Leica should pay for the damn coding of all wide angle lenses - all lenses were supposed to work fine without the coding - weren't they, according to the advertising and PR literature. The coding was supposed to be optional. But now it will be mandatory if you use the IR filters and want to avoit the cyan corners. And you HAVE to have an IR filter to avoid the magenta issues. Maybe Leica should lower the price of the camera by about $400 so that I can get my 3 lenses coded. OR make the solution via firmware. Leica needs to step up to the plate on this!!!!!!

Jonathan Elderfield Photography

 

 

Jonathan,

I concur with you, but I feel that the firmware solution is the best, obviously if for free.

My point is that if Leica is reluctant for the "off-brand" issue or whatever but if this solution can be implemented, perhaps they would be more inclined to do so if they get some bucks for the hassle...

[sean_reid]

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People here may know that I feel very strongly about this and am trying to get Leica to adopt a manual lens selection option via the firmware (we could all just download the update - no cost and little time lost). I'm about to start a thread related to this but I advise as many people as possible let Leica know how they feel about this via e-mail etc. It doesn't matter what their response is to us individually on this issue but I think that they should know the extent of our concern, ie: the more e-mails, letters, etc. they get about this the better.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[hrosell]

I was so shocked when I found out that there isn't a menu based option. It just screams of marketing BS. I refuse to pay so much for something that is such a simple software fix. Having a manual vignetting correction slider and vignetting midpoint slider that can be assigned to lens profiles would be a fantastic fix. It would allow me to DECIDE how much of the vignetting to take away. This is especially important considering lenses vignette differently at different apertures.

 

_mike

 

 

Mike,

 

I hope Leica follow all these quite reasonable suggestions...

 

Horacio

[hrosell]

People here may know that I feel very strongly about this and am trying to get Leica to adopt a manual lens selection option via the firmware (we could all just download the update - no cost and little time lost). I'm about to start a thread related to this but I advise as many people as possible let Leica know how they feel about this via e-mail etc. It doesn't matter what their response is to us individually on this issue but I think that they should know the extent of our concern, ie: the more e-mails, letters, etc. they get about this the better.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean,

 

First of all: my respect and admiration for what you and the other guys are doing and sharing with us.

 

Regarding e-mails, please advise where should I send my post to in order to get it read by someone who will read it and take care.

Thanks in advance,

 

Horacio

[jelderfield]

Sean - I just sent this to Leica:

 

Dear Sir and Madame:

 

I really do want to buy this camera - the M8.

 

I'm a photo professional of over 16 years - not an amateur. I now shoot with the M-7. I want to be able to shoot digital with the Leica M system.

 

HOWEVER:

 

To pay $4795 - I can do that - use IR filters I can do that. But now I have to have all my lenses coded so that I can use them - it's not even the expense but I'm shocked that it's something I now HAVE to do.

 

I just went out and shot a roll of Provia 400 pushed to 1600 because I'm seriously considering NOT buying this camera.

 

I want to be able to shoot the M8 without ever worrying that the color won't be like in real life. This should be the basic starting point of the camera. If I have to use filters to get good files but there should be a better option than the coding.

 

Make a menu selectable choice of lenses via the firmware/software so that I can select the lens I'm using on the camera menus and don't have to eat this additional cost. Then I don't have to sent the lenses out for coding and I can use my non-leica lenses in addition to the three M lenses that I do own.

 

I really feel like there are beginning to be TOO MANY obstacles for this to be a workable camera for a professional.

 

All best,

Jonathan

 

--

Jonathan Elderfield

Jonathan Elderfield Photography

"Living Under South Street"

[Jean LeBlanc]

Sean - I just sent this to Leica:

 

To pay $4795 - I can do that - use IR filters I can do that. But now I have to have all my lenses coded so that I can use them - it's not even the expense but I'm shocked that it's something I now HAVE to do.

 

It's actually quite insulting, telling us that we not only have to buy filters (beyond the two they're so graciously giving away) but that we also have to pay for coding our lenses, all because they refuse to offer a menu choice in the software.

 

If this stands, and if Leica doesn't go bankrupt, we'll undoubtedly see aftermarket lens mounts with coding for a lot less than what Leica is charging. Leica should just ship out replacement mounts for $20 each. It's not rocket science to unscrew the old mount and screw on the replacement.

 

So I think patience will pay off. Wait and see how good the M8 is after the "fix", and see whether Leica makes reasonable cost lens coding available. Jumping in now, before we know what the camera is really capable of, could be a very expensive mistake. Who knows what other surprises await?

[jrc]

One thing I didn't mention about the coding -- I'm in the process of spending $1,000 to get my eight lenses coded, but that really doesn't hurt me too much. What would REALLY hurt was if the package got lost. The five out now are worth ~ $12,500, and if the package got lost, this would be a serious pain in ass.

 

By the way, I would like to know what other people do about insurance? My local FedEx says $500 max, which is why I sent them by registered mail. Is $500 really the max at FedEx and UPS? Are there alternatives?

 

JC

[Jean LeBlanc]

One thing I didn't mention about the coding -- I'm in the process of spending $1,000 to get my eight lenses coded, but that really doesn't hurt me too much. What would REALLY hurt was if the package got lost. The five out now are worth ~ $12,500, and if the package got lost, this would be a serious pain in ass.

 

By the way, I would like to know what other people do about insurance? My local FedEx says $500 max, which is why I sent them by registered mail. Is $500 really the max at FedEx and UPS? Are there alternatives?

 

JC

 

We regularly insure parcels for several thousand dollars with UPS. We've never hit any limit, though I imagine there must be one.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Let me say something that has not been said by leica. They never said what is in the firmware that is released in early December I think they said the information for coded lenses would be in it but i never heard the words they will Not put a menu item in either.Were really not exactly sure what is in the firmware and from past experience with firmware and other camera companies. you really don't know until it is released on what they improved. Now the information will be in there for the focal lengths of the lenses anyway so maybe adding the menu item could be a simple task. Okay better put in there I am not a engineer. LOL

 

But maybe it is possible it can be done on this firmware release. Fingers and toes crossed.

 

But i agree with Sean send a e-mail about this need. They more they know the better to implement

[J_Brittenson]

They could easily add not only a manual selection, but also custom lens settings that let people manually add lenses that have no codes assigned.

[scott kirkpatrick]

They could easily add not only a manual selection, but also custom lens settings that let people manually add lenses that have no codes assigned.

 

This is an obvious invitation for a few people to sit down and hack the existing as well as the new firmware, something that Leica would probably prefer not to see because of the confusion that inevitably results. It's been done with Canon in the past, and the hacked firmware allowed some of the entry models to do things that were supposed to only happen in more expensive models.

 

It sounds logical that one should merely enter the focal length and exit pupil distance, since these are the principal factors. The focal length determines the angle of view across the frame and thus the angles at which light passes through an IR filter causing a color-dependent correction. The exit pupil distance determines the mean angle at which light reaches the sensor, and thus the overall vignetting correction. This second factor is complicated by the fact that Leica/Kodak put offset microlenses to partially correct for vignetting, leaving a firmware correction for overall intensity which Leica already makes but which we can only guess at.

 

For speed, these corrections may not be calculated from a few parameters in firmware, but may be looked up in larger tables, which would exist only for Leica's supported lenses.

 

So my suggestion is that Leica explain more of what it is doing, and we can each make an individual decision between hacking the dots (see another thread), hacking the firmware, accessing the existing lens profiles through a Leica-provided menu, buying all summi-X lenses and paying to have them coded if they don't come that way, or taking our ball and bat and playing on some other field.

 

scott

[AlanG]

This is a pretty obvious idea. As has been reported the Kodak DCS 14n and SLRc and SLRn models had this and supported some non Nikon lenses too. Additionally, the lens optimization could be adjusted via the Kodak raw converter. Seperately, I wonder why it takes a month to paint the coding on a few lenses. Weren't they expecting a lot of lenses to be sent in?

 

What the firmware really needs is a calibration system. For instance you slip a diffusion filter over the lens and shoot a calibration image and the software uses that to adjust for cyan corners and vignetting. This could work reasonably well with any brand lens and would automatically take into account the light source being used.. I didn't invent this concept, it is used to calibrate medium format digital backs when camera movements are employed. It too seems obvious to me and could solve a lot of problems.

[carstenw]

The lenses can be coded with a Sharpie. Check the other thread on this. No need for an expense, no need to send it away. I am compiling a list of codes. Again, check the other threads.

[pemayeux]

The lenses can be coded with a Sharpie. Check the other thread on this. No need for an expense, no need to send it away. I am compiling a list of codes. Again, check the other threads.

 

this is great news, especially in light of Sean Reids article on lenses. The off brand lenses that compare to a Leica performance wise could easily be coded so the camera knows no difference.

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[johnastovall]

The lenses can be coded with a Sharpie. Check the other thread on this. No need for an expense, no need to send it away. I am compiling a list of codes. Again, check the other threads.

 

I'm one of those who cancled my M8 and lens orders over this mess and the idea that a company with Leica long history for quality should reduce it's users to hand bar coding lenses with a Sharpie is completely unsatifactory from my view point.

 

We should hold Leica to a higher standard and point out that Nikon does this in the menu firmware and any user of modern electronics would expect this.

 

Why shouldn't we expect Leica to produce a 21th century product? Hand printed barcodes belongs back with punch cards as far as technology goes.