viramati Posted November 8, 2009 Share #1 Posted November 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I recently bought an 8.2 as a prequel to getting a M9. Since doing this the D700 and all its lenses have rarely come out the bag. Now I do like shooting wide and do interior and cityscape work and with the D700, which is an SLR, framing is no problem when it comes to parallel lines etc and I hardly ever use the ‘live-view’ feature. Now I have bought the WATE plus its dedicated viewfinder and really love the quality of the lens but framing, even when done with great care, is really a pain when it comes to parallels etc. Now I know that it would be going against the whole ‘Leica RF’ ethos but all I’m really interested in is getting the best picture in the best way and when it comes to this ‘Live-view’ would be an amazing feature that would turn a great camera into the best. Now I was wondering if this could ever become available even as a firmware update as I would have thought that it could be done as a sort of extension of ‘the shutter lock open’ which is used for sensor cleaning with the sensor staying live and the LCD being on. Then I would be able to get rid of all my Nikon gear and buy more Leica (are you listening out there at Solms) Thoughts please. David -------------------- David Sampson Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Hi viramati, Take a look here Live view. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted November 8, 2009 Share #2 Posted November 8, 2009 No live view as long as there is a CCD in the M camera (and may it be for very long ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted November 8, 2009 as I'm no techy can you please explain why. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted November 8, 2009 Share #4 Posted November 8, 2009 Ironic at least to me, is that Live View is becoming ubiquitous on dslrs, where it's quite redundant and of very little practical use (especially on 1-series Canons where the viewfinder is 100%), and yet unfeasible on the Leica rangefinder where it would truly be useful when more than approximate framing is desired, and when using longer lenses which have tiny viewfinder frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted November 8, 2009 Share #5 Posted November 8, 2009 Ironic at least to me, is that Live View is becoming ubiquitous on dslrs, where it's quite redundant and of very little practical use (especially on 1-series Canons where the viewfinder is 100%), and yet unfeasible on the Leica rangefinder where it would truly be useful when more than approximate framing is desired, and when using longer lenses which have tiny viewfinder frames. Well, I HAVE used live view on my 5D2 but I'd agree that its of very little practical use and the times that I have used it have been for pretty specialist applications (10x macro where it is useful for checking focus, and underwater where its part of the video system for checking focus using manual 'pre-focus'). I personally might use it on an M but suspect that the same applies - few and far between uses - so it would be irrelevant to me for the most part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 8, 2009 Share #6 Posted November 8, 2009 In Stefan Daniels interview on luminous-landscape, he says that they are considering CMOS in the future also because of Liveview as it would be a nice addition to the M indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted November 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) thanks but why not possible with ccd? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor AIS Posted November 8, 2009 Share #8 Posted November 8, 2009 I use really appreciate the Live View feature on my D3. When using my Nikkor 800 5.6 IF ED AIS and the TC-301 tele converter to photograph sunrises the live view feature really shines. not only does it stop from my eye's from being burned out of there sockets but helps reduce the vibration of the mirror raising. When I take the picture using my cable release. It's true I could lock up the mirror but that would mean I would need to click twice and wait for vibration to subside before taking the capture. I also use the live view when using the camera at odd angles up high or down low when using wide angle's. Being able to see what Im framing without pressing my face in the dirt is really great especially when the ground is half frozen. Gregory Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted November 8, 2009 Share #9 Posted November 8, 2009 The nature of the sensor precludes the information seen by it to be portrayed in "Live View", think Video vs. Film. Stephan may see value in the Marketing "me too" feature of Live View to keep up with the Jones's... Although One thing I loved about Wet Dark-room, and still love about the M8, M8.2, and M9 is closing the LCD with the Luigi Case, and forgetting about the image until Post. Am I alone on the Idea that the Process cannot be the same as the Result? I really like to open each card like a Roll of Tech Pan Pushed, or Tri-X, with a slight fear,a dn delight as the image evolves... True -- there are circumstances when the ability to review in Camera, 'as- occurring', has merit, and may be indispensable to some but the M Camera is specifically not for that Shooter... Right? CMOS or not, CCD Leica Cameras my appreciate in Value when the Shutter-less CMOS Live View M10, is released. (builit by Panasonic) Whereas a good Tool for that 'Live' Purpose... (the Panasonic GF1 yes?), and it's future progeny... and whereby Leica May even offer Live CMOS in a Future Leica M Digital... Like so many features in the Current Leica, I am unlikely to ever use them. "Snap-shot Mode" anyone? Likely ...Created for Brad Pitt alone. -Max Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 8, 2009 Share #10 Posted November 8, 2009 A CCD simply generates too much heat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted November 8, 2009 Share #11 Posted November 8, 2009 I'll grant that Live View is a feature of limited usefulness - but then you could say that about a lot of camera features. As Greg notes, a couple of obvious uses on a DSLR are to accomodate odd camera angles and/or to eliminate mirror slap. On my D3, I use it when out on one of my motorcycles and I don't want to take off my full-face helmet. Works a heck a lot better than just kind of generally holding the camera up to the scene and hoping your AF and framing is somewhere in the ballpark. I'd love it on a digital M - but not at the cost of compromising IQ (the CCD vs. CMOS debate). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted November 8, 2009 Share #12 Posted November 8, 2009 thanks but why not possible with ccd? Live view requires an electronic shutter that is impossible to implement in a full-frame transfer CCD (arguably the best kind of CCD there is, quality-wise) which Leica has been using in the M8, M9, and S2, and also in the DMR (it is also the kind of sensor typically used in medium format cameras or backs). A interline transfer CCD (the type prevalent in compact digicams) supports an electronic shutter – that’s why compact digicams have live view –, but first there is a price to be paid in terms of image quality (put simply, there is more noise and less dynamic range) and second there is the issue of heat: big CCDs will heat up quickly so prolonged use of live view would increase dark current noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 8, 2009 Share #13 Posted November 8, 2009 I'd love it on a digital M - but not at the cost of compromising IQ (the CCD vs. CMOS debate). There aren't IQ compromises. CMOS have lower read noise but larger shot noise, because the fill factor is lower too (circuits reducing the light sensitive surface). Full frame transfer CCDs have lower shot noise but more read noise. New generation back-illuminated CMOS sensors will increase the fill factor to the same level of FFT CCDs. Anyway, color filters and AA filter can be specified by Leica, for CCDs or CMOS. The problem is to find a manufacturer/designer of state of the art CMOS sensors. Kodak would be the ideal candidate for designing such a sensor for Leica, and other company can manufacture them... Live view on a LCD screen with 320.000/3 pixels isn't optimal for manual focus. Look at the new electronic viewfinder of the Olympus E-P2, using Epson's technology. It would be a great idea to have one such accessory EVF for the Ms, just for the people who need of or want to pay for it. It may replace current accessory viewfinders (18mm, 21mm, 24mm, frankenfinder, 21-24-28, etc.) and provide a great tool for 1) macro lenses; 2) tele lenses; 3) R lenses (with adapter). It doesn't imply to renounce to the classical viewfinder and rangefinder, of course. If you don't want or need that accessory EVF, don't buy it. But I think that is the future, and the best possible evolution for M cameras. Leica needs time (and money) for this development: new sensor, new processor, new LCD, new firmware, new partners, etc. If the project has started now, we will see this camera in 2011 at the earliest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted November 8, 2009 Share #14 Posted November 8, 2009 Live view requires an electronic shutter that is impossible to implement in a full-frame transfer CCD (arguably the best kind of CCD there is, quality-wise) which Leica has been using in the M8, M9, and S2, and also in the DMR (it is also the kind of sensor typically used in medium format cameras or backs). A interline transfer CCD (the type prevalent in compact digicams) supports an electronic shutter – that’s why compact digicams have live view –, but first there is a price to be paid in terms of image quality (put simply, there is more noise and less dynamic range) and second there is the issue of heat: big CCDs will heat up quickly so prolonged use of live view would increase dark current noise. the dynamic range of the nikon D3x (CMos) is about 2 to 2 1/2 stops larger than the dynamic range of the full frame CCD M9. i am not sure though whether CMos sensors of that quality would be available to leica. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted November 8, 2009 Share #15 Posted November 8, 2009 Ironic at least to me, is that Live View is becoming ubiquitous on dslrs, where it's quite redundant and of very little practical use (especially on 1-series Canons where the viewfinder is 100%), and yet unfeasible on the Leica rangefinder where it would truly be useful when more than approximate framing is desired, and when using longer lenses which have tiny viewfinder frames. And, on dslrs, I find liveview useful particularly for remote viewing/capture using a PC when taking studio shots (product photography for example). For this purpose, I'd prefer to use a Leica M with remote viewing/capture, in order to use Leica lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 8, 2009 Share #16 Posted November 8, 2009 Some people find Live View interesting, specially as a complement for rangefinders: Rangefinder Photography - Jeff Ascough's Blog . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 8, 2009 Share #17 Posted November 8, 2009 I've been shooting a lot with live view and the 5DII. There are numerous advantages, many have been mentioned already. I recently shot an architectural dusk shot and live view let me see exactly how the sodium vapor street lights would look in relation to the other lights in the scene. I recently started using a Zacuto Z finder on the back of the camera for a magnified view. This gives a much larger and clearer view than the optical slr finder provides. It is sort of like going from an 20 inch analogue tv to a 60 inch 1080P view. It allows for more accurate manual focusing even if you don't magnify the image for focusing. It gives a very bright sharp view even in low light. By magnifying the image, one can accurately preview the depth of field and critically judge focus. The big drawback with the 5DII and live view is the long blackout between frames. This makes using it for any kind of action very difficult. If they can get the cameras to work as quickly in live view as in normal mode, I can certainly see an EVF being the preferred way to shoot as I already try to use the LCD and the Zacuto finder for as many applications as I can. Yes, I can work without live view, but why should I? DSLR Viewfinder, DSLR EyePiece, DSLR Focusing - Zacuto Z-Finder | Zacuto I don't get Michael's electronic shutter comments as the Canon and other live view cameras use the mechanical shutter. I can't say why full frame and larger CCD cameras couldn't have live view at some point. I believe the whole CCD vs. CMOS is a red herring. I think one could get similar results with either. It is up to the camera and software designers to make it happen. The chip is only one aspect in the imaging chain. As resolution has increased, accurate focusing has become more critical and sometimes is problematic with all systems. The AAF points on DSLR cameras are still grouped close to the middle of the image. MF cameras only have a central AF focus point. The new Hasselblad has a system that calculates the amount that one tilts the camera after focusing on the center point and then re-framing. It automatically adjusts the focus to compensate. Live view is another tool that can sometimes help, as it allows one to judge the focus at any point on the sensor. Live view would certainly give the M user the ability for very critical framing and focusing when that is important. It would eliminate any issues of focus shift when stopping down the lens. And of course it would greatly broaden the range of lenses that could be used on it. I've been suggesting it for years and have been criticized for it every time. But once the M has live view, I guarantee you that many people will embrace it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted November 8, 2009 Share #18 Posted November 8, 2009 I don't get Michael's electronic shutter comments as the Canon and other live view cameras use the mechanical shutter. If they did use the focal plane shutter for live view, I would have noticed that. You couldn’t possibly miss a mechanical shutter opening and closing 30 times a second, running through the 300,000 cycles Canon guarantees for in just 2 hours and 46 minutes of live view. During live view, a Canon EOS just keeps the curtains open and controls the exposure time with an electronic shutter. All the other DSLRs offering live view work the same – except Sony’s models that sport a secondary sensor providing a live view of the image on the focusing screen while the mirror is down, the focal plane shutter closed, and the main sensor switched off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 9, 2009 Share #19 Posted November 9, 2009 If they did use the focal plane shutter for live view, I would have noticed that. You couldn’t possibly miss a mechanical shutter opening and closing 30 times a second, running through the 300,000 cycles Canon guarantees for in just 2 hours and 46 minutes of live view. During live view, a Canon EOS just keeps the curtains open and controls the exposure time with an electronic shutter. All the other DSLRs offering live view work the same – except Sony’s models that sport a secondary sensor providing a live view of the image on the focusing screen while the mirror is down, the focal plane shutter closed, and the main sensor switched off. I think you are confusing the video mode with the still mode. You can take the lens off the camera and watch for yourself. Set it to live view mode, the mirror will go up and the shutter will open. Then press the shutter release, the shutter will close and open again - taking the picture for the designated shutter speed, close, and then open again back to live view. Likewise, while using the video mode, you can interupt the filming for a still shot and the shutter will momentarly activate. A live view still image is not a frame grab from a video. I would love it if someday they could achieve live view with an electronic shutter as this would eliminate the blackouts and the delay between shots. It would also allow for higher flash synch and very rapid fire. The camera would be silent and would have no vibration. I hope it won't be long before we see this but if it existed today it would be quite apparent as these benefits would be features that we clearly don't have now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheewai_m6 Posted November 9, 2009 Share #20 Posted November 9, 2009 i don't know whether live view would be a good idea on a leica m, mainly because the aperture on the lense is controlled manually. unless you have it on maximum aperture, the light going to to the sensor be greatly reduced. slr lens apertures are always wide open until the shutter is released. for this reason, i don't think live view would be good on a leica m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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