Digital MP as a platform for all future Sensor/Electronic upgrades; possible?

[jaapv]

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As I said It before Leica did that with the DMR on the R8/R9 and it was a big failure leadind to the extinction of the R line.

 

I don't think they will try it again.

 

Lucien

That one eludes me - There were about 4000 DMRs built until Leica fell out with Imacon - and the series sold out completely.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Jaapv,

 

Agree 100%, a DM-M should work on a huge amount of analog M cameras. I can't imagine not wanting one.

 

The M9 chip goes on the back and the eletronics and SD card in a M-winder base.. no screen etc.. just a dial selector for ISO / on off, DNG / jpg only. fix color in light-room on DNG.

 

.

[adan]

Reality check: You put a DMM on an M3-MP. How...

 

• does the sensor know when the exposure is coming (electronic link - R8/9 had contacts for this; Hassy backs for legacy cameras use the "feeler" pin connected to the shutter button)

 

• does the M9 sensor fit into the position of the film plane, designed for .05mm-thick film instead of a 1.5mm thick sensor package? (Remember film rails? Main reason the DMR was limited to 1.4x crop. The focus point for film is the front surface - the focus point for a sensor is behind a mm or so of IR filter and microlenses)

 

• do the electronics know which lens is mounted to correct for corner drifts/vignetting (nothing to read lens coding on film Ms without major surgery. If one was willing to stop and re-enter the lens type with every lens change from a menu, one gets back to needing an LCD)

 

etc. etc.

 

Without meaning to slam anyone on this thread specifically, I am constantly amazed at the basic lack of engineering savvy and critical thinking among photographers who are sure it would be "easy" to design this, that or the other camera.

 

"NASA managed to move a 6-million-lb Saturn V/Apollo to the moon and back on one tank of hydrogen - it should be easy to move a 3,000-lb car 500,000 miles on one tank of fuel!!"

[stunsworth]

Silicon film had a similar idea almost 10 years ago. They no longer exist and went under without producing a singel unit for sale.

 

Producing all the bits would be an engineering nightmare and would lead to a larger camera. Look at the M8 and M9, how many parts do they have in common?

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Andy,

 

Sorry - I meant "it is possible". not discounting the issues involved.

 

Yes I did see and click a tethered silicon film module briefly, by the time they had them working nobody wanted a 1280x960px capture device. (and they never worked entirely) but I think the idea have merit, particularly if one focuses on a sexier camera like some of the M cameras compared to ALL SLR cameras on the market.

 

.

[ModernMan]

Jaapv,

 

Agree 100%, a DM-M should work on a huge amount of analog M cameras. I can't imagine not wanting one.

 

The M9 chip goes on the back and the eletronics and SD card in a M-winder base.. no screen etc.. just a dial selector for ISO / on off, DNG / jpg only. fix color in light-room on DNG.

 

.

 

I think Leica would sell quite a few DM-M "backs" (assuming it can be built, and depending on price), and since building such a thing would make the M3-M7 upgradeable to digital, its an intriuging concept.

 

The M9 offers some functionality that would be hard to deliver with such a DM-M, such as automatic lens identification, and auto-ISO based on meter reading, and as well the DM-M package would be a bit bigger than an M9. So, I think i'd choose the M9 even if a DM-M were available.

 

However, I think about this in terms of the "upgradability" of the M-system, not just M camera bodies. The majority of my Leica-M investment is in the lenses. The M9 delivers a major upgrade to my M-system, since it "resuses" all my lenses (and its green since I don't have to throw my Noctilux etc. into the landfill to upgrade to an M9 ). A standardized upgradable "M rangefinder chassis", would be relatively small economic benefit when the total cost of ownership, including lenses is considered, and it is not possible to guarantee for how long such an upgradable M could be kept technologically current.

 

Interestingly, pre-6-bit lenses can be upgraded to 6-bit in most cases, which is probably more important economically to owners that reusing M-body rangfinder assemblies and shutters.

[Leicaiste]

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That one eludes me - There were about 4000 DMRs built until Leica fell out with Imacon - and the series sold out completely.

 

Jaapv,

 

I should know, I have one of them.

 

Still the "upgrade" of the R8/R9 via the DMR was the last "R" move from Leica before dismissing the R line...

 

Lucien

[adan]

I don't want to splash cold water on dreams. I'm just pointing out that the "dreamers" who actually got somewhere had the technical skills to back up their dreams (Edison, von Braun, Michael Dell) or partnered with someone who had the technical skills (Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniak).

 

The first thing a good scientist does is not to try and prove her theory, but to disprove it - from every possible angle. If, after a couple of years (or decades) of work, thinking about every way that someone else might attack it, and conducting the experiments needed to check those attacks - it has not yet fallen - then it is ready for publication.

 

For a technologist, the approach is to think up every possible problem that could stand in the way, not to discourage herself, but so that each of them can be addressed and overcome, and the new problems the solutions introduce can be addressed and overcome.

 

RED isn't an especially good argument for modularization - a full-frame Leica M built along those lines would be bigger than a Mamiya 7 and cost $30,000. In the realm of video and motion film cameras where it competes, it is not so bad.

[AlanJW]

I find this discussion fascinating and idea worth thinking about. However, why from a business standpoint would Leica want to cannibalize its digital sales by manufacturing and selling an upgrade module for film cameras? The only way it would make sense is if Leica could generate significant volume that allowed it to to recapture its R&D and manufacturing and marketing costs (i.e. make a profit) and that calculation would have to consider lost profits from lost M9 sales in the equation. While one might argue that not every "module" sale would replace an M9 sale, the fact is that the potential buyers are the same: people who want to have a rangefinder with Leica lenses available for it, so the likelihood is that at least some sales of M9s would be lost. This is different than the X1, and S2 whose target markets are different.

 

I just don't see them doing this to prove that they could do it from a technology standpoint -- and if they did decide to do it my prediction is the cost would be close to the cost of a M9 (or M10 or M11) by the time they added up everything.

 

Finally, Leica is a small company and a project like this would be a diversion of resources that could also be costly (in a variety of ways). Doesn't seem like a good investment as compared to continuing to develop the digital M series as well as its other products with better profit potential. SO much as it is intriguing and fun to talk about, it is probably never going to happen.

[danyves]

Maybe on this path ????

 

Ricoh GXR interchangeable unit camera, previewed: Digital Photography Review

[MarkM6]

Maybe on this path ????

 

Ricoh GXR interchangeable unit camera, previewed: Digital Photography Review

 

As Googaliser has said; a modular approach!

 

RED / Index

 

.....predicated entirely on a modular approach.

If the stills cameras due soon make as much of a splash as the video cameras did in Hollywood - ALL manufacturers should feel nervous

[MarkM6]

I find this discussion fascinating and idea worth thinking about. However, why from a business standpoint would Leica want to cannibalize its digital sales by manufacturing and selling an upgrade module for film cameras?....

 

I was not asking for a digital back/module for the MP.

 

My question was whether the next M, be it the M10 can be engineered to have the sensor and the image processing board upgradable; given that it maintains the classic M body. In order to minimize the complexity of the system to compatible with the future upgrades, perhaps keeping it very simple like the MP.

 

I can imagine how nice it would be if the M8 can be upgraded to M9 sensor and image processor at the factory.