Wordsmith Letter from leica

[davidberry]

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Here are the Questions leica needs to answer:

1-What exactly is the Fix--

2-What does Robust Remendy mean?

3-What does Root Causes mean?

4-What is the Dealers role in the final outcome?

5- What about an easy swapout program?

They must stop talking around the issues and be up front with owners...I called leica in NJ yesterday and spoke with Dave and he don't have answers either...He was extremly fustrated.....Botton line is leica is treating us like idiots...

[andybarton]

That must be a world record "lurk" David.

 

May 2004 - November 2006 -- 2 1/2 years for a first post

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Leica have solutions in tbe pipeline and they are not taking anyone for idiots.

 

Do you already have an M8, have one on order or are you a potential purchaser?

[davidberry]

Andy

Thanks for the welcome....Have been shooting leica for 30 years....I have a M-8 and am enjoying it...I feel stongly they should be upfront and answer those 5 question's I pointed out....I don't believe they should avoid answering these questions sooner than later..

[John Maio]

Andy

Thanks for the welcome....Have been shooting leica for 30 years....I have a M-8 and am enjoying it...I feel stongly they should be upfront and answer those 5 question's I pointed out....I don't believe they should avoid answering these questions sooner than later..

 

My issue with the letter is the condescending tone right from the start:

 

"Since delivery of the LEICA M8 started as of the end of October 2006 we have received the endorsement of many happy users. Nevertheless, in some fairly rare situations, some annoying effects may occasionally occur. Even though these artifacts neither happen often nor to everyone we want to eliminate the effects by providing the following solution."

 

I owned my M8 for 3 days and then returned it because of the IR issues which were obvious in just routine practice of the photography I like to do. The assertion that problems occur in "fairly rare situations" etc., but they are going to be nice and provide a solution anyway, was an unfortunate tone for me.

 

I don't know if that's just translation or if they hired a high priced spin doctor to write it, but I'm sitting this game out until I can order an M8 with coded lens and filter - all at once - and only after real users and not official and unofficial Leica spokespersons have convinced me that this camera is suitable for my intended use.

 

"Once burned, twice shy"

[lesh]

 

Leica have solutions in tbe pipeline and they are not taking anyone for idiots.

 

 

Mmm.....unquestioning support, reminiscent of the Fox Network vis a vis the Bush Administration.

Without being disrespectful to our hosts, might we possibly entertain the notion that the problem, and the subsequent crisis management, has not been all that it might be?

[LJL]

John,

I am felling the same sentiment in the tone. I have an M8. I saw all of the problems on the first use, the day after I picked it up. Followed that up with a similar shoot the next day, again with all of the issues there. Not on every shot, and not even on many shots, but enough to have me worrying about "counting" on the M8 to deliver. Fast forward....I still have the M8, and do not want to part with it at all. The 486 UV/IR filters work, but I really do not like the "proposed" solution below 35mm (Leica only coded lenses or cyan corners). I am presently talking to my local dealer, and they know less than most reading this forum and cannot get any conistent and even moderately complete story from Leica on what to do. They are willing to swap my camera for a new one that should come in this week. Will wait to see how that plays out. In the meantime, I have to say that the camera captures some incredible images for me, notwithstanding the shooter's skills.

 

So, for those like you that took yours back, I hope you are able to get another that will work for you. For those who are waiting, it will be worth it. For those of us that have one and are managing, it would be great if Leica could just be straight up with problem, analysis, solution, repair/replace plan and goodwill gesture. The camera does some great stuff, but it has some problems that many have spoke at length about. It needs to be "fixed" and Leica would earn back a lot of credibility by taking the "spin" off and just dealing with things swiftly and clearly.

 

Sorry for the bit of a rant. I am trying to work this lovely M8 into my shooting, but just cannot be sure what I get until I look. That is not how it needs to be. Not expecting perfection, but also not expecting to be continually waltzed off the floor either by overly imprecise legalese speak that also keeps changing.

 

LJ

[like_no_other]

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My issue with the letter is the condescending tone right from the start:

 

"Since delivery of the LEICA M8 started as of the end of October 2006 we have received the endorsement of many happy users. Nevertheless, in some fairly rare situations, some annoying effects may occasionally occur. Even though these artifacts neither happen often nor to everyone we want to eliminate the effects by providing the following solution."

 

I owned my M8 for 3 days and then returned it because of the IR issues which were obvious in just routine practice of the photography I like to do. The assertion that problems occur in "fairly rare situations" etc., but they are going to be nice and provide a solution anyway, was an unfortunate tone for me.

 

I don't know if that's just translation or if that they hired a high priced spin doctor to write it, but I'm sitting this game out until I can order an M8 with coded lens and filter - all at once - and only after real users and not official and unofficial Leica spokespersons have convinced me that this camera is suitable for my intended use.

 

"Once burned, twice shy"

 

 

The problem is not the translation.

In German, Leica's text on their website sounds %&%&&$%&.

 

There seems to be a gap between the real product quality and Leica's ability to meet it's own claim to quality.

Nevertheless how obvious this situation is they keep on communicating such sentences like 'we offer the best products' - 'we meet the highest customer expectations an even more'' ...

 

Yes they don't simply repair defect products they offer upgrades free of charge in their unlimited gentleness.

 

This little company managed within a few weeks to alienate a certain amount of customers.

[John Maio]

John,

 

So, for those like you that took yours back, I hope you are able to get another that will work for you.

 

LJ

 

I'm assuming that it might be mid-year before I'm able to snag another M8 as a complete "kit" as I've described.

 

In the meantime, I have my trusty M7, and I've ordered a Digilux-3 to mollify me until then

[rob_x2004]

Beats me. Everyone compains they want a fix, then complain when they are offered it.

Ever seen a surgeon up on the table to panel beat someones face so they can give em a nice nose job?

You arent qualified to evaluate the procedure. If the fix doesnt work, then complain.

 

Better still, dont buy, wait till the new model is out and tested and make a considered purchase like any normal person would.

[like_no_other]

Beats me. Everyone compains they want a fix, then complain when they are offered it.

Ever seen a surgeon up on the table to panel beat someones face so they can give em a nice nose job?

You arent qualified to evaluate the procedure. If the fix doesnt work, then complain.

 

Better still, dont buy, wait till the new model is out and tested and make a considered purchase like any normal person would.

 

 

You arent qualified to evaluate the procedure.

[Jamie Roberts]

My issue with the letter is the condescending tone right from the start:

 

"Since delivery of the LEICA M8 started as of the end of October 2006 we have received the endorsement of many happy users. Nevertheless, in some fairly rare situations, some annoying effects may occasionally occur. Even though these artifacts neither happen often nor to everyone we want to eliminate the effects by providing the following solution."

 

I owned my M8 for 3 days and then returned it because of the IR issues which were obvious in just routine practice of the photography I like to do. The assertion that problems occur in "fairly rare situations" etc., but they are going to be nice and provide a solution anyway, was an unfortunate tone for me.

 

I don't know if that's just translation or if they hired a high priced spin doctor to write it, but I'm sitting this game out until I can order an M8 with coded lens and filter - all at once - and only after real users and not official and unofficial Leica spokespersons have convinced me that this camera is suitable for my intended use.

 

"Once burned, twice shy"

 

John--

 

I understand you think Leica is downplaying the issue here, but I have to ask--

 

What's your intended use?

 

I'm a real user, and so are a lot of the people on the forum who have M8s and are happy with them, given the Leica fixes for streaking.

 

I don't use coded lenses (well, one is coded and three aren't), and I don't use filters. The thing is a marvellous camera, and only rarely do I see a magenta problem. I haven't seen *any* colour problems in any real shots (only ones meant to show the IR problems!).

 

Does it need the fixes? Yes, especially the streaking. Would you see these problems in a lot of daytime or even nighttime shots? Not necessarily.

 

I mean, I've got high contrast candlelight shots at ISO 640 that don't show any streaks. I've got lots of street shots at ISO 2500 and 1250 and no streaks, either. Not much IR shift under flourescent or sodium lamps either (certainly nothing I haven't been able to deal with).

 

You need a combination of factors to show the problem--it really doesn't show all the time.

[John Maio]

John--

 

I understand you think Leica is downplaying the issue here, but I have to ask--

 

What's your intended use?

 

I'm a real user, and so are a lot of the people on the forum who have M8s and are happy with them, given the Leica fixes for streaking.

 

I don't use coded lenses (well, one is coded and three aren't), and I don't use filters. The thing is a marvellous camera, and only rarely do I see a magenta problem. I haven't seen *any* colour problems in any real shots (only ones meant to show the IR problems!).

 

Does it need the fixes? Yes, especially the streaking. Would you see these problems in a lot of daytime or even nighttime shots? Not necessarily.

 

I mean, I've got high contrast candlelight shots at ISO 640 that don't show any streaks. I've got lots of street shots at ISO 2500 and 1250 and no streaks, either. Not much IR shift under flourescent or sodium lamps either (certainly nothing I haven't been able to deal with).

 

You need a combination of factors to show the problem--it really doesn't show all the time.

 

Jamie,

 

On any forum dedicated to a specific brand, there are those who feel impassioned enough to debate and challenge anyone who would say what they think - if what they think - doesn't pass muster.

 

On this forum, you, Guy, Sean, and several others have done a fantastic job developing workarounds for our beloved Leica. The company should honor all of you in some way for all of the work you've done for them.

 

I appreciate that. I also appreciate your experience with your M8 and the C1 profiles and the hours and hours of work that you and the others mentioned have put into making the camera work for you - something that Leica's highly paid engineers should have done.

 

But please, if my sense is that our paternalistic Leica chooses to "speak" in the language of a U.S. government politician after Katrina, and I express my disappointment, I don't see what would be gained by further debate.

 

I am still a Leicaphile and have been for years. If I say I'll buy another M8 when I can buy a complete camera and lens I (as in moi) can trust, why should that grate on you?

[LJL]

Jamie,

LIke you, I am also a real M8 user. There are problems and fixes are in the works. I have also shot it under everything from low to high ISO, streetlamps, candles, reflecitve glare, tungsten and halogen lamps, etc. Under some sets of conditions, streaks, magenta, blobs, etc., will arise. Always? Not that I have seen. That was partly the point I was trying to make.....not always predictable. The flip side, like you state, is that one is rewarded with some pretty incredible images and wonderful files.

 

I also understand what John was saying about the "tone" of how Leica has been addressing these problems. I am taking them out behind the woodshed here, but rather agreeing that it would be a lot less stressful if we could get some clearly stated and consistent replies in a timely fashion. I am on the fence about taking my M8 back to my dealer this week for a brand new "fixed" model, not knowing if the fixes really work, how the offers for filters will be handled, if there is a rumored goodwill lens discount or not, if there are other shoes waiting to drop. For me, the M8 is staying in my kit. I just do not know if it the present one making a trip to Germany? NJ? or wherever, or a new one, but without some compensation for all the trials so far. I am not complaining about anything other than how Leica is communicating with owners about how to proceed. Those that are not owners, well, I feel for them, but they may or may not ever become an owner needing to get things working....

 

LJ

[herbkell]

John--

 

I understand you think Leica is downplaying the issue here, but I have to ask--

 

What's your intended use?

 

I'm a real user, and so are a lot of the people on the forum who have M8s and are happy with them, given the Leica fixes for streaking.

 

I don't use coded lenses (well, one is coded and three aren't), and I don't use filters. The thing is a marvellous camera, and only rarely do I see a magenta problem. I haven't seen *any* colour problems in any real shots (only ones meant to show the IR problems!).

 

Does it need the fixes? Yes, especially the streaking. Would you see these problems in a lot of daytime or even nighttime shots? Not necessarily.

 

I mean, I've got high contrast candlelight shots at ISO 640 that don't show any streaks. I've got lots of street shots at ISO 2500 and 1250 and no streaks, either. Not much IR shift under flourescent or sodium lamps either (certainly nothing I haven't been able to deal with).

 

You need a combination of factors to show the problem--it really doesn't show all the time.

 

 

Jamie I am not sure what you mean by real user -I hope you don't mean to say "Pro" which implies that you Pros have better judgement than us amateurs?

 

I am an amateur but I would consider myself as a real user of this camera and it does in my opinion have some serious issues for the type of shooting I want to do with this camera I also resent Leica's "upbeat PR" approach to these real problems and confused and incomplete response todate

 

I shoot a lot of indoor (mostly tungsten) candid shoots and the magenta issue is extremely prevalent.Probably 80 percent of shots as there is a hell of a lot of synthetic black material out there I also seem to get banding quite regularly on high contrast, high ISO shots Maybe one in five. I suspect YMMV is a fair statement ......

 

Just another opinion from a real user

[canlogic]

I think what he means by 'real' user is someone who actually owns and uses the camera. There have been many posts sh--ting all over it and even some for it from 'users' who have never used the camera.

[John Maio]

 

I shoot a lot of indoor (mostly tungsten) candid shoots and the magenta issue is extremely prevalent.Probably 80 percent of shots as there is a hell of a lot of synthetic black material out there I also seem to get banding quite regularly on high contrast, high ISO shots Maybe one in five. I suspect YMMV is a fair statement ......

 

Just another opinion from a real user

 

That was one of my "intended uses", but have no fear - - 5D to the rescue!

 

PS: This theater still I made on Sunday from Samuel Beckett's "Waiting For Godot" reminded me of the "debate" for some reason:D

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[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie,

 

{snipped}But please, if my sense is that our paternalistic Leica chooses to "speak" in the language of a U.S. government politician after Katrina, and I express my disappointment, I don't see what would be gained by further debate.

 

I am still a Leicaphile and have been for years. If I say I'll buy another M8 when I can buy a complete camera and lens I (as in moi) can trust, why should that grate on you?

 

John--first, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it.

 

Secondly, it only grates on me a wee bit because there are plenty of "real users" (your term, not mine, for everyone following along) who find the camera perfectly suitable. Who are you waiting to say "the camera is ok, it's ok!"

 

Guy and I maybe fanatics about working through stuff, but neither of us are spokesman for Leica--unofficial or not. Of course, if they offer me a Noctilux, that could change

 

So I guess I just think the general hubbub about the M8 being "incomplete" or something, and the disaffection at Leica's perfectly reasonable response is a bit over the top now that it's pretty clear that 1) the camera is excellent 2) it needs a part replacement and 3) Leica will give away filters for IR.

 

No-one is dying for not choosing to use an M8, right? I don't think the hurricane Katrina comparison is really appropriate here.

 

So I was completely sincere in asking "what's your intended use?" I wasn't trying to be rhetorical. I'm not debating you either--of *course* you shouldn't buy a camera you don't yourself trust. I think theatrical photography is a pretty interesting special purpose, and probably is more affected by the current M8 woes than other types of shooting...

 

So no worries. That's a very good shot of "Godot," BTW--the nearest bowler looks a little magenta to me But now I always look for that

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie I am not sure what you mean by real user -I hope you don't mean to say "Pro" which implies that you Pros have better judgement than us amateurs?

 

I am an amateur but I would consider myself as a real user of this camera and it does in my opinion have some serious issues for the type of shooting I want to do with this camera I also resent Leica's "upbeat PR" approach to these real problems and confused and incomplete response todate

 

I shoot a lot of indoor (mostly tungsten) candid shoots and the magenta issue is extremely prevalent.Probably 80 percent of shots as there is a hell of a lot of synthetic black material out there I also seem to get banding quite regularly on high contrast, high ISO shots Maybe one in five. I suspect YMMV is a fair statement ......

 

Just another opinion from a real user

 

Herb--I wasn't saying anything of the kind about being a pro or anything like that. "Real users" wasn't my term at all...

 

John originally said he wouldn't believe the M8 was any good or ready until "real users" started saying so, and not "official or unofficial Leica spokesman".

 

Well, I'm a real user, and so is Guy. We're nuts (well Guy is -- JUST KIDDING!!) but we're still real users.

 

And so are you a real user. But I don't agree--as one person who doesn't get paid by Leica to another--with you about Leica's response. I don't think their response is in any way confused or incomplete (though I'm hoping for the 30% lens discount).

 

I'm very impressed they've taken 2 weeks (yes, 2 weeks!) to show how they're going to fix the streaking. The IR stuff is fixed by filters or color profiles or both (and yes--that can work with JPEGs too).

 

Is that ideal? Well, I'll stand by my assertion that I haven't seen the magenta problem very much. If you're getting it a lot, and you don't want to use filters, shoot RAW and use C1 LE as Leica provided it, and download the profiles. You won't see it very much afterwards.

 

This is all relative anyway. Disappointment aside, Canon never even admitted the 1ds2 ate shots (yes, ate them--try explaining *that* to your client). It just fixed this in firmware when the time came, which was months after the camera was released. Oh, and that camera was more than twice the price of the M8.

[Riley]

That was one of my "intended uses", but have no fear - - 5D to the rescue!

 

PS: This theater still I made on Sunday from Samuel Beckett's "Waiting For Godot" reminded me of the "debate" for some reason:D

 

nice frame from 5D John. is that a magenta hat that guys wearing ?

 

Riley

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[drjon]

John--

 

I understand you think Leica is downplaying the issue here, but I have to ask--

 

What's your intended use?

 

I'm a real user, and so are a lot of the people on the forum who have M8s and are happy with them, given the Leica fixes for streaking.

 

I don't use coded lenses (well, one is coded and three aren't), and I don't use filters. The thing is a marvellous camera, and only rarely do I see a magenta problem. I haven't seen *any* colour problems in any real shots (only ones meant to show the IR problems!).

 

Does it need the fixes? Yes, especially the streaking. Would you see these problems in a lot of daytime or even nighttime shots? Not necessarily.

 

I mean, I've got high contrast candlelight shots at ISO 640 that don't show any streaks. I've got lots of street shots at ISO 2500 and 1250 and no streaks, either. Not much IR shift under flourescent or sodium lamps either (certainly nothing I haven't been able to deal with).

 

You need a combination of factors to show the problem--it really doesn't show all the time.

 

I am an amateur user; Jamie has summed it up very well from my perspective. The profiles work very well for my pictures - thanks again Jamie and others.

 

I commented elsewhere that Leica made sound engineering choices but poor marketing ones - but no one died. Leica are an old, established German company; their culture (which we should commend given the 15 minutes culture we live in now) lends itself to shots in the foot. For me, it is bordeing on a miracle that they produced the M8 at this level of performance straight out of the box - both culturally and technically.