Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #1 Posted November 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I own five Leicas, 12 Leica lenses and love my M8. When I take photos I am acutely aware that I cannot blame ANY Leica camera for the end result. I say that up front because I am very pro Leica products and the heritage of the company. However I am also realsitic and am concerned by the lack of communication from the factory since the build up towards S2, M9, X1, Pradovit ...and since 09/09/09 NOTHING!. I ask if others share the concern and would like feedback on issues that concern them. I would identify at least these issues: Leica M8 firmware next release....Will there be one? When? Will it be free or will some items that add new features be charged (eg manual lens select, ISO number Select as per M9)? When will well known (since three years) issues such as shutter lock up be fixed? Leica M9 firmware next release...When will the various issues documented in this forum be fixed as a firmware release. Some issues it has been suggested may be a hardware or alignment issue for some batches (eg 18mm lens alignment on the M9) ...is this the case? What will the next firmware release fix (Red lines, corner fix, Vignetting, etc).....Personally I see the issues that have been posted are small niggles and could be mostly fixed in post production...but what is Leica official position? Leica M9 and S2 shipments ...What has been shipped so far? When will the committed backlog be cleared? When will dealers have stock? Leica Financial Report Update...Is it now not a good time to learn the current state of affairs so that we all have confidence in Leica as a viable supplier that is on track with the declared roadmap? I believe that these announcements are made quarterly or bi annually anyway. I believe we have seen: Bad news of August, ( severe losses) Bad news of March (delayed until July) related to previous year Difficulties in agreeing employee cost saving measures, Marcom Genius of the M9 announcement followed by inability to ship Need to hire extra people & work two shifts to clear M9 backlog. S2 delays and initial pricing ...is this strategy working as seen by Solms [*]Other issues.....I am sure that there are many more,. I am not asking for Leica to define when M10 will be announced, shipped and what spec as that needs to be confidential. I do think that as a very happy M8 owner, and someone who will be buying 18mm and other lenses plus eventally a M10 the other questions are reasonable. Still that is my view. Comments, and questions you would like answered by Solms Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Leica Solms feedback to the Forum on ???. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dpattinson Posted November 6, 2009 Share #2 Posted November 6, 2009 When my (Leica) flash fails to fire on my M8 despite the ready light in the VF showing - I regularly blame Leica for the missed shot. But I still use the camera Seriously - how much do you want to flog this horse? Do you think announcements will make anything happen faster? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #3 Posted November 6, 2009 I think as a Forum we should provide continuous feedback to Solms so that they can focus areas of concern and not simply the monthly shipments of M9 at the expense of all else. They need as a company to be client driven, listen and be responsive...which they frquently are not. I remain hopeful that Solms are not arrogant and deaf to a loyal client base consequently I certainly do not see this as flogging a dead horse. I also feel that we should be responsible and helpful towards Leica. It is easy to list hundreds of issues with Leica or Canon or Nikon products, and I have been guilty in the past of doing this with a hope that some issues would be acted upon by Leica. The danger is that if pushed too far new clients may think again about buying a Leica and that would be bad news for that prospective client (my view) and Leica, and the Forum. However I learned years ago that as a client you get what you accept....Try a £25 breakfast at several 5 star hotels in London and check the service, the bacon & eggs, the toast and the dirty table cloth...now try a transport cafe and see how the truckers react to poor quality at high prices! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 6, 2009 Share #4 Posted November 6, 2009 "Leica M8 firmware next release....Will there be one? When?" Yes there'll be one, there has to be if new lenses are announced. Do you think limited resources should be taken away from M9 development? "Marcom Genius of the M9 announcement followed by inability to ship Sorry what is "Marcom Genius"? "Need to hire extra people..." What extra people? Do you mean they've hired them, or that they ought to hire them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted November 6, 2009 Share #5 Posted November 6, 2009 Snip Snip Leica M8 firmware next release.... Will there be one? Yes Stefan Daniel already said there would be When? Perhaps when they have some spare capacity since clearly they are fully engaged getting M9 production volume to meet demand, S2 to initial stock and X1 to come to market Will it be free Yes, Leica Camera has never charged for any firmware update. Suggestions that it would be charged for are entirely forum speculation with no supporting evidence whatsoever. or will some items that add new features be charged No but that does not mean you can transfer All M9 functionaility to the M8 (eg manual lens select, ISO number Select as per M9)? Stefan already said that it would be too expensive to implement in the M8. It was possible with the M9 since the firmware was entirely new When will well known (since three years) issues such as shutter lock up be fixed? end snip Most people would say that the design has been mature since the correction of the faults with the first ~ 1000 cameras. What specific shutter lock issue are you having with your camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 6, 2009 Share #6 Posted November 6, 2009 Geoff, you've mixed up your responses with Frank's original questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #7 Posted November 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Leica M8 firmware next release....Will there be one? When?" Yes there'll be one, there has to be if new lenses are announced. Do you think limited resources should be taken away from M9 development?[/quote] Steve you say ther will be one...Do you have inside knowledge on this as several people have asked the question since months and there has been no response. You say they must do it for new lenses anyway.....Is that really true? They have no mechanism on M8 to manually identify lenses, many people do NOT have the 6 bit coding and I am using old lenses ...... but they seem to work very well. Ok the profiles may not be up to what some may like but they are now pretty good in my opinion. All that said I find it annoying to have still after three years the shutter lockup issue. I would like the ISO selection and lens selection and it is not clear if that is going to be available...similarly EV bracketing. I bought my camera at end of June ..only 4 months ago and although I do not expect extra features from M9 and eventual M10, M11 etc to be available for free I believe after 4 months there should be some good news from a company with Leica's reputation. I certainly get upset when all we have is silence. [/quote] ""Marcom Genius of the M9 announcement followed by inability to ship.....Sorry what is "Marcom Genius"? [/quote] I believe that many people have remarked on what a great job Leica achieved in building up expectations before the 09/09/09 event....leaks here and there, followed by silence, followed by seeded articles etc. I am told it was a great Marcom job. Frankly in my view this becomes a disaster for the brand if you cannot ship having built up the expectations and it gets worse if people identify problems. Thankfully the issues identified so far appear to be niggles and not serious. They apparently can all be fixed by software. However Leica are keeping silent about when the M9 niggles will be sorted by a firmware release. They also remain silent about when committed backlog will be shipped, and when dealers will have stock available for immediate purchase. Certain parts of the world such as Asia, and USA, Australia seem to feel that they are not getting their fair share..................So I ask is all of this really good marketing to keep a loyal, eager client base guessing when product that they have ordered will be shipped? If I had ordered a M9 a few weeks ago I am told that it could be March of next year for delivery, maybe , perhaps?! If the delay was a week or two or three as originally suggested OK ...but a few months, when calculations by those in the loop suggest that they have shipped only about 500 to 1000 units so far...against a demand of order 20 to 30000 for first production year. ""Need to hire extra people..." What extra people? Do you mean they've hired them, or that they ought to hire them? There was a press report and various threads 3 weeks ago that Solms is in process to hire 100 people to train so that they can address the backlog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #8 Posted November 6, 2009 Snip Most people would say that the design has been mature since the correction of the faults with the first ~ 1000 cameras. What specific shutter lock issue are you having with your camera? If you do certain things like remove lower cover, and then take a photo with lens cap on the camera locks up......This can be corrected by removing the battery and reinserting. If you shoot with lens cap on and then remove lens cap the camera shutter is locked up.....this can be fixed by switching power off and then on again. I believe that other lock up mecahnisms exist and Leica are fully aware. It is also the case as reported here that M9 has the same issues. Actually since all of the issues are easily fixed and are due to my own lack of attention I do not feel strongly that they should be urgently fixed. Except: They have been identified since 3 years and remain on the new M9 camera At Leica prices and with their brand it would be nice to see perfection and no issues. I do like the M8 however and I would buy one again without hesitation. I just want Leica to embrace continual improvement....is that wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted November 6, 2009 Share #9 Posted November 6, 2009 f you do certain things like remove lower cover, and then take a photo with lens cap on the camera locks up......This can be corrected by removing the battery and reinserting. If you shoot with lens cap on and then remove lens cap the camera shutter is locked up.....this can be fixed by switching power off and then on again. Yeah, and if you do things you're not meant to - like taking the bottom off and using the camera - why are you surprised if it plays up. If you accidentally release the shutter with the lens cap on, then assuming the speed dial is on A it'll time through to the maximum exposure length. I can do the same thing with an M7 and M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 6, 2009 Share #10 Posted November 6, 2009 Steve you say ther will be one...Do you have inside knowledge on this as several people have asked the question since months and there has been no response. Like yourself I have no insider knowledge, however if new lenses are to be supported by the M8 there has to be revised firmware. As an M8 user I have no problem in accepting that the limited coding resources should be concentrating on the M9. As far as _I'm_ concerned I'm perfectly happy with the M8 as it stands. Any changes to the firmware may just icing on the cake, and like the addition of the discrete shutter release prove to be of no interest what so ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #11 Posted November 6, 2009 Like yourself I have no insider knowledge, however if new lenses are to be supported by the M8 there has to be revised firmware. What should the firmware do to support new lenses...I do not see the need for this. My understanding is that the M8 takes 6bit coded detail (If this is available on the lens) and then estmates (guesses) the aperture selected looking at total light into the camera and that going through the stopped down lens....This data is used in the firmware to generate Metadata that can be used in post production or is used in the camera to create an appropriate JPEG with correct colour rendering. The M9 avoids the need for coding lenses as there is a manual option to set the lens value...I would like this but the M8 does not have this in the firmware. Steve can you tell me what the firmware does on a M8 if tomorrow Leica releases a 15mm ASPH F1.4 lens for example? I believe that the camera can do nothing with such a lens as it would not know if it was a 24,28,21,18, or indeed an eventual 15mm lens . Is that wrong? If it was a M9 I could see that perhaps one could manually select the 15mm lens from a table, and perhaps the M9 firmware in future could adjust for vignetting and even corner fix issues, plus colour shifts at the sides. I would like Leica to say that these things will be available on M8 also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 6, 2009 Share #12 Posted November 6, 2009 What should the firmware do to support new lenses...I do not see the need for this... The amount of colour correction done in camera varies not only by aperture, but by focal length. Different models of lens of the same focal length also need different correction. A 16mm lens at f5.6 will need a totally different colour correction to that of a 50mm lens at f5.6. So the camera needs to know the focal length, and that information is passed to the body via the appropriate code. Therefore if a new lens is introduced - say a 16mm or a revised 50mm Summicron - the M8 will need to recognise the new lens and apply the appropriate colour correction. For that to occur it will need to be running revised firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 6, 2009 Share #13 Posted November 6, 2009 Yeah, and if you do things you're not meant to - like taking the bottom off and using the camera - why are you surprised if it plays up. If you accidentally release the shutter with the lens cap on, then assuming the speed dial is on A it'll time through to the maximum exposure length. I can do the same thing with an M7 and M8. But with the M8 you could switch the camera off and on as soon as you realized you had made a mistake and avoid 64 seconds of waiting for the camera to do its thing. The M9, however, will lock up and require a battery out reset if you do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 6, 2009 Share #14 Posted November 6, 2009 "Marcom Genius of the M9 announcement followed by inability to ship.....Sorry what is "Marcom Genius"? [/quote] I believe that many people have remarked on what a great job Leica achieved in building up expectations before the 09/09/09 event....leaks here and there, followed by silence, followed by seeded articles etc. I am told it was a great Marcom job. Frankly in my view this becomes a disaster for the brand if you cannot ship having built up the expectations and it gets worse if people identify problems. Thankfully the issues identified so far appear to be niggles and not serious. They apparently can all be fixed by software. However Leica are keeping silent about when the M9 niggles will be sorted by a firmware release. They also remain silent about when committed backlog will be shipped, and when dealers will have stock available for immediate purchase. Certain parts of the world such as Asia, and USA, Australia seem to feel that they are not getting their fair share..................So I ask is all of this really good marketing to keep a loyal, eager client base guessing when product that they have ordered will be shipped? If I had ordered a M9 a few weeks ago I am told that it could be March of next year for delivery, maybe , perhaps?! If the delay was a week or two or three as originally suggested OK ...but a few months, when calculations by those in the loop suggest that they have shipped only about 500 to 1000 units so far...against a demand of order 20 to 30000 for first production year. There was a press report and various threads 3 weeks ago that Solms is in process to hire 100 people to train so that they can address the backlog. Yes there will most likely be a firmware update, addressing some of the things you mention, but it might take some time, probably it will be just after the release of new lens(es) as Steve says. I though from your post that Marcom Genius was the name of a Leica executive:o Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 6, 2009 Share #15 Posted November 6, 2009 Guys, don't feed the Troll. He can pick the meat from that dead horse he's flogging all by himself. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 6, 2009 Share #16 Posted November 6, 2009 Don't mention the Pr***vit, you mean (to misquote John Cleese ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted November 6, 2009 Share #17 Posted November 6, 2009 Yaaawwwwnnn! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #18 Posted November 6, 2009 Guys, don't feed the Troll. He can pick the meat from that dead horse he's flogging all by himself. Regards,Bill I think that the issues I have raised are serious ones that concern me for M8, and it appears Jaapv, who I respect, is widening the debate to suggest for M9 it is also an issue. Bill for a guy who has no M8, I believe has no M9 (in your hands or on order) and shoots film ....I do not understand what you are saying as you never seem to want to address the issues but get into rhetoric as per above in public. Please if you have an issue PM me . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 6, 2009 Share #19 Posted November 6, 2009 I think that the issues I have raised are serious ones that concern me for M8... Actually you had more M9 issues than M8 in your original post. I guess some people are tired at your constant attempt to play at being a CEO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 6, 2009 Share #20 Posted November 6, 2009 The amount of colour correction done in camera varies not only by aperture, but by focal length. Different models of lens of the same focal length also need different correction. A 16mm lens at f5.6 will need a totally different colour correction to that of a 50mm lens at f5.6. So the camera needs to know the focal length, and that information is passed to the body via the appropriate code. Therefore if a new lens is introduced - say a 16mm or a revised 50mm Summicron - the M8 will need to recognise the new lens and apply the appropriate colour correction. For that to occur it will need to be running revised firmware. Steve for me this opens pandoras box. How does the M8 or M9 know what flavour of 50mm Summicron is attached? Does the 6 bit coding give this detail? Does the M8 or M9 really know in the firmware the various corrections required for every lens at every aperture ? If the above is YES on both accounts then I guess the firmware issue is much bigger than I thought to achieve a future proof M8 camera relationship with all old lenses and those that will become available. Steve, and Jaapv I'd appreciate your feedback on this and/or please direct me to the links about firmware that explain as I do not currently see the firmware as doing what you suggest ...ie tailored for every lens differently. I do see broad brush correction for wide, medium telephoto focal lengths. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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