noah_addis Posted October 30, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been using my M9 hard for that past two days now. I have mixed feelings. The image quality is just outstanding. I'd say it's a huge step above the M8 in a lot of ways. I no longer fear reflections when shooting into light sources, it seems to hold highlight detail better and the areas that are blown out are more pleasing to the eye. The sharpness and tonality are excellent. And I'm starting to remember how much l loved the 28/2. However, there are a few issues. The camera is slow to write images and very slow to show a zoomed preview. I mean VERY slow. I have the camera set to review for 1sec with a histogram so I can glance to check my exposure. Sometimes the review takes a long time to come up and a few times it never came up at all. But the main subject of this post is a problem I had while shooting today. I shot a few frames and the LCD said 'battery low, turn off camera' or something to that effect. It definitely instructed me to turn off the camera. I normally shoot DNG + JPEG FINE with the JPEG set for B&W. So I turned it off, put in a new battery and when I started shooting again I noticed I was getting a color preview. It turns out that ALL of my user profiles were gone and my shooting settings had all changed. I was forced to reset all of my preferences and due to the time it took I lost a good moment to photograph. Incidentally, the date was still correct so it's not as if ALL of the information was wiped from memory. Has anyone else had this experience? Overall the camera seems sluggish and slow. I'm worried that the processing/writing speeds and bugs like the loss of user settings when changing batteries will make the camera frustrating to work with. But I'm so happy with the image quality that I may just have to get used to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Hi noah_addis, Take a look here M9 problem. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanJW Posted October 31, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 31, 2009 Noah, just to rule out issues, and before you leap to any conclusions about the camera. are you using high speed SD or SDHC cards? I think the camera has to read from the card in order to display (or zoom in) as the internal memory is just buffer. Have you tried a different card or different brand of card? The speed problem could be related to the media. I think the SDHC spec is "type 6" for high speed. There are others here who may be more expert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted October 31, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 31, 2009 Noah I have had my M9 since september . Initially I had the same reaction..the large files make it slower. In fact using it side by side with the M8 ...I liked the M8 better. But the files are so much better from the M9. Plus the 28/2 is back as the main lens. After a few weeks I ve adjusted to the delay and now I don t notice it at all. Your shooting flow will adjust and then you will have files that are magnificent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted October 31, 2009 I always shoot on single shot mode, never continuous. With the M8 you can pretty much shoot another frame right after the wind is finished. With the M9 the camera needs a small amount of time before you can shoot again. I'm using Extreme III 4gb cards (30MB/Sec edition), which I know aren't rated as the best for the M9 but it's what I have. I could probably get used to the speed. Plus I'll eventually have two cameras so I can switch to the other when the buffer gets full. The speed isn't the main issue though, the main issue is that the camera deleted all of my settings in the middle of shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted October 31, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 31, 2009 Did you lose date and time settings when you changed the battery as well? It might be that the internal back-up battery needs charging. Otherwise it has to be firmware, which is fixable. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 31, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 31, 2009 Both the M8 and M9 have a short delay between showing a low-res file and a high-res file in regular review (not instant review, which I never use and can't comment on). The difference is that the M8 loads the hi-res image - in the background - before you start zooming. If you watch an M8 as you scroll from picture to picture, you can see the image jump slightly in 1x unzoomed mode after a second or two as the hi-res loads. The M9, OTOH, doesn't load the hi-res until you hit the zoom control, so the delay is more noticeable. If, for example, you are in "delete" mode and switch back to play, and then zoom in with an M8 - it behaves like the M9. The delay shows up upon zooming. Personally, I prefer the M8 method. It took a while to get used to that little jump in the image, but the overall effect feels smoother when zooming. Hopefully (Are you listening, Leica?) this can be changed in firmware. I suspect Leica was just trying to cut down on processing overhead by only loading the full-res file when a user showed a desire for it (by zooming). I believe the "lost users profiles" issue came up before - and that the answer was that with a factory-new camera it takes a while for the internal battery to charge up to hold those settings when the main battery is taken out. You'll also probably find that at 25% battery charge on the info screen, you only have 10 or so shots left. Takes a few full chargings and dischargings to season the removable battery(s). Write speed - yes, the jpeg processing takes about 2 times as long as just RAW alone - 3 times as long if shooting both formats together. That was true with the M8, also. Shooting straight .dngs, I don't notice a difference between the cameras in the write time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted October 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Chris, Yes, I did lose the settings when changing the battery, but not all was lost. I had named my folder and that was maintained, as was the date and time. Does the internal battery charge itself from the main camera battery? Adan, Maybe I'll have to start shooting DNG only. But I really like the B&W previews. Are you listening Leica? The d700 lets you shoot raw only and get a B&W preview. The M9 should too. The other advantage is, of course, that you have two files in case the DNG is corrupted. I didn't have any bad files today but yesterday I had four unreadable DNG files out of 360. I also prefer the M8 method of loading the high-res image in the background. The other thing that is REALLY slow on the M9 is the deleting process. I will sometimes shoot a quick test to check the light, view the preview then delete it. Also sometimes I want to delete a photo taken by accident. With the M8 I could basically delete it as soon as I want. With the M9 it is very sluggish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 31, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 31, 2009 Noah-- The M9 has write-time issues, just like its older brother did before someone at Leica or Jenoptik wrote some better code. I remember when the M8 was sluggs-ville with fast cards, and it appears the M9 is the same right now. This is one of those things I really expect them to fix in firmware, so I wouldn't worry (and I'll be putting my $$ where my mouth is one of these days when I have $$ again!). As for the cards, try to find some Ultra 2s instead of Extreme 3s. I don't have it to hand, but the Extreme 3s were rated notably slower, IIRC, than the Ultra 2s in Leica's own SD card recommendation. Weird, but just goes to show they have a write issue they need to solve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 31, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 31, 2009 Noah--I don't have an M9, so I'm just parroting what I've read here. Call Leica Technical and ask them about losing your stored settings. Andy is right, there was another thread on the topic; no, that's not supposed to happen. Stefan Daniel said in the Reichmann interview that he dislikes the slow response when initially zooming, and that he expects that to be improved with a firmware update. Do try another card, as Jamie suggested, one on Leica's recommended list. Why some lesser cards are rated better than the 4GB Extreme III is beyond me, but if another size or specification card works better, it's time and money saved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted October 31, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 31, 2009 I strongly suspect this is a hardware issue as well as a software issue. I think they may get a little more from the software but the real problem is the use of the M8 hardware times 2 and the additional overhead in software to manage the dual pipes.They need to move to custom ASIC instead of menial off the shelf hardware that is now 4 years old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 31, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 31, 2009 I strongly suspect this is a hardware issue as well as a software issue. I think they may get a little more from the software but the real problem is the use of the M8 hardware times 2 and the additional overhead in software to manage the dual pipes.They need to move to custom ASIC instead of menial off the shelf hardware that is now 4 years old. Since when--when?--do you know what DSPs Leica is using in the M9? Why would you strongly suspect a hardware failure when you 1) don't have the camera and 2) don't have any real knowledge? What facts do you know about them using M8 parts? John--you're really close to being a troll with this kind of stuff. If you've got links, post them. Facts? Share them. Otherwise, you should get over Leica and go use something else... oh wait... you are, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 31, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 31, 2009 Hi Noah - a question: are you using uncompressed DNGs? My own experience with the M9 is that I'm reserving this for 160 ISO "special" work (mainly landscape or product photography) for all other purposes (and especially at higher ISO) I'm more than satisfied with the Compressed DNGs (which were what we've lived with on the M8 for three years). I also use Sandisk Extreme III disks (8 rather than 4) and find the write speed shooting compressed DNG is absolutely fine (eg when using exposure bracketing). I'd worry about shooting uncompressed DNG + JPEG. IMHO that's a big load to put on the processor. BTW - I can understand why there may be reasons for shooting JPEGS if you're having to send images to an agency immediately from the field - but if this isn't the case, why do it? Shooting DNG and then processing in LR to generate colour/B&W JPEGS (using the wonderful Virtual Copy feature) works well. Just my 2 cents - but it seems like you're maybe making life tougher for yourself and for the M9 than you need to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 31, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 31, 2009 Makes sense to me, Chris. Shoot DNG only and uncompressed for ISO 160. I'm quite sure there are some out there who where uncompressed at ISO 2500 is better than compressed... As for losing the profiles, these would normally be stored in flash NVRAM which does not require a battery backup. AFAIK, the battery is used to run the clock. When I've done this sort of thing in the past, I've maintained two copies of the profile data, each with a checksum so that on reading them, I can recover the corrupted settings providing one copy is good, like a kind of mini-RAID. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted October 31, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 31, 2009 So Noah, are you ever going to be able to clout an M9 round like an M6 or is it just another Leica incantation that has lost connection with its roots? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted October 31, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 31, 2009 Hi Noah - a question: are you using uncompressed DNGs? My own experience with the M9 is that I'm reserving this for 160 ISO "special" work (mainly landscape or product photography) for all other purposes (and especially at higher ISO) I'm more than satisfied with the Compressed DNGs (which were what we've lived with on the M8 for three years). I also use Sandisk Extreme III disks (8 rather than 4) and find the write speed shooting compressed DNG is absolutely fine (eg when using exposure bracketing). I'd worry about shooting uncompressed DNG + JPEG. IMHO that's a big load to put on the processor. BTW - I can understand why there may be reasons for shooting JPEGS if you're having to send images to an agency immediately from the field - but if this isn't the case, why do it? Shooting DNG and then processing in LR to generate colour/B&W JPEGS (using the wonderful Virtual Copy feature) works well. Just my 2 cents - but it seems like you're maybe making life tougher for yourself and for the M9 than you need to? One of the benefits I find in shooting JPEG+DNG, with B&W preview, is being able to instantly see both B&W and color versions up on the screen in Lightroom. Sure, it's easy enough to toggle back and forth by sequentially hitting the grayscale and color buttons. But seeing both versions up on the screen at the same time, for all images, is very helpful. That's a great suggestion on when to use uncompressed, Chris. I think I'll do it that way once my M9 arrives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 31, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 31, 2009 That's a great suggestion on when to use uncompressed, Chris. I think I'll do it that way once my M9 arrives. There was a very informative discussion here ... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/101279-compressed-versus-uncompressed.html#post1067842 It's working for me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share #17 Posted October 31, 2009 So Noah, are you ever going to be able to clout an M9 round like an M6 or is it just another Leica incantation that has lost connection with its roots? That's really the $7000 question, isn't it:D I've noticed another issue--if I try to select user profile #1 it never works the first time. If I'm on a different profile and I choose #1, when I go back to the set menu it says "-". If I select #1 again then it works. Strangely, I can pick any of the other user profiles and it works the first time. I really only have three profiles I use, so I've set them to 2-4 and I leave #1 unused. This is repeatable and happens every time I try it. Anyone have any guesses when we'll see a new firmware version? I didn't get an M8 when it was first introduced so I missed all of the adventures in the early days. I hate to say it, but I feel like a beta tester. And I shouldn't have that feeling on such an expensive piece of gear. I assume there were in fact beta testers for the M9, so didn't these issues show up? I'm really doing normal day-to-day work for a pro, and I don't see how things like this could have been missed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem7 Posted October 31, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 31, 2009 That's really the $7000 question, isn't it:D I've noticed another issue--if I try to select user profile #1 it never works the first time. If I'm on a different profile and I choose #1, when I go back to the set menu it says "-". If I select #1 again then it works. Strangely, I can pick any of the other user profiles and it works the first time. I really only have three profiles I use, so I've set them to 2-4 and I leave #1 unused. This is repeatable and happens every time I try it. Anyone have any guesses when we'll see a new firmware version? I didn't get an M8 when it was first introduced so I missed all of the adventures in the early days. I hate to say it, but I feel like a beta tester. And I shouldn't have that feeling on such an expensive piece of gear. I assume there were in fact beta testers for the M9, so didn't these issues show up? I'm really doing normal day-to-day work for a pro, and I don't see how things like this could have been missed. I have been shooting the m9 every single day for 3+ weeks now and have not had any issues besides the slow zoom on the preview. I can shoot one image after another, I can delete images quickly, and I have no issue with the write times, and I shoot RAW & JPEG. I have charged my battery twice in 3 weeks and have just not had any problems as far as the operation of the camera. I discovered my RF may be ever so slightly out of adjustment but that is fixable. My user profiles work fine. The only thing that frustrates me is the ultra slow format time. I use an 8GB Extreme III card. If I were a beta tester I would have reported no issues. Only the slow preview that can freeze the camera if you are trying to zoom in on it while the camera is writing to the card, and the slow format. I would say that both of these will be fixed in firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 31, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 31, 2009 Well Noah. The problem is that it seems the beta testers Leica uses now photograph wine glasses and beer steins and quaint alleys. True photojournalists seem to beleft out of the loop on M product testing. I guess were just not the intended market anymore. Too bad because I'm sure the likes of yourself and say DAH could have given Leica some real feedback. Whether they listened or not would be. A whole 'nother thing. I'm number one on my dealers list for an M9 but am having some reservations about going for it. Nice to see the $ in my bank account and may just wait. Is the image quality that much better thantheM8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted October 31, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 31, 2009 The image quality is just outstanding. I'd say it's a huge step above the M8 the files are so much better from the M9. I'm just curious, other than the euphoria of a new toy and/or the urgency to validate the $10,000CDN expenditure, do you gentlemen have any hard facts, i.e. image comparisons to back up that hyperbole? Having used an M9 myself I grant there is slight improvement in IQ here and there (a stop of noise, much less IR sensitivity albeit some remains, etc.) but by and large I wouldn't describe the M9 IQ as "a huge step" or "so much better" and neither does any other professional I know or respect who has been using an M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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