Petition for a Leica R10

[germio]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

They said a FF R10 would have a price tag just below US$10k. There would be a reasonable size market for it but it would not be a growing market.

[bill]

They said a FF R10 would have a price tag just below US$10k. There would be a reasonable size market for it but it would not be a growing market.

 

Who did?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[sdai]

Who did?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

It can be found in Andreas' report on the Hessenpark meeting, Bill. It seems that Stefan Daniel has said a R10 would cost 6000 - 7000 Euros and they don't think people will buy it at that price.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/89591-summary-q-session-stefan-daniel-during.html#post938082

 

They are probably right if in the fashion industry, if you can't sell a shirt for 6000 euros, perhaps you can open somebody's wallet once you mark it up to 22000 euros.

[andybarton]

Not a big fan of the S2, are you?

 

[sdai]

Not a big fan of the S2, are you?

 

 

I think it's a great camera, Andy. My opinion completely changed once I've put my hands on it although I haven't seen a convincing image so far ... I've gone on the record saying it is the most beautiful camera Leica has ever built.

 

But again, what they've done with the S2 proves that they can build a great R10 too, so why don't they do it?

 

I still have a lot of interest in the S2 if Leica could prove themselves and successfully roll out all the pre-announced lenses and accessories, but I don't think it is useful for me right now. When I was at the S2 day event in Toronto, Leica even refused to confirm the status and schedule of any other lenses except the first 3 which I'm not interested in at all.

 

When someone asked for support contact, Ms. Kosh said she will be the ONE to contact with when stuff happens, so they have only one person to support the whole North America?

 

I already have many R lenses ranging from 35mm to 280mm so I can have instant fun with a R10 should they've decided to make one.

 

Is this choice/preference very difficult?

[lieberdavid]

Hi Everyone,

 

With the technology for the S2 available, it would seem a simple matter to make an R 10 similar to the S2 but with a 24 x 36 sensor and an R mount. While I myself don't care about auto focus, an R 10 these days will have to have it, but that should no longer be a problem. It will also need 20 mb or more pixels for current quality and credibility expectations. That should be easy: the S2 sensor at 39.5 mb and 30 x 45 is just 56% larger in area, so a 25 mb sensor for the R 10 could be realized by using the same one as for the S2 and cutting it down: 25 mb x 1.56 = 39 mb. So design should not be a big problem and development costs should also be minimal, as most of the development has already been done for the S2. Price? Under $10,000 and it will sell, I should think quite well.

 

Cheers!

David

[adan]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

In all seriousness, I'd be far more impressed if those who say they are willing to spend $10,000 for an "R10" ponied up their $10K to form a pooled escrow account (instead of signing a petition), and then went to Rudy Spiller and Andrew Kaufmann and said, "We'll invest this in the design and production of a R-mount digital SLR - ROI to be one new body for each of the members of the pool + one lens of our choice."

 

100 "R investors" = $1,000,000

 

Remember that vacuum-cleaner CEO who said "I liked the product so much - I bought the company!"?

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

It can be found in Andreas' report on the Hessenpark meeting, Bill. It seems that Stefan Daniel has said a R10 would cost 6000 - 7000 Euros and they don't think people will buy it at that price.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/89591-summary-q-session-stefan-daniel-during.html#post938082

 

They are probably right if in the fashion industry, if you can't sell a shirt for 6000 euros, perhaps you can open somebody's wallet once you mark it up to 22000 euros.

 

that is a great pricing option for a digital 24x36 sensor camera with the functionality and viewfinder quality of R8/R9.

4000-5000 euros will sell many more thousand bodies.

[lieberdavid]

Hi Everyone,

 

I fear I've made an error. I thought the S2 sensor was 39.5 megapixels, but upon checking I see that it's only 37.5 mp. Well, if cut down to 24 x 36 size that still provides a 24 megapixel sensor for an R 10: because 24 x 1.56 = 37.44 megapixels which is less that 37.5.

 

Sorry for my mistake.

 

Cheers!

David

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

In all seriousness, I'd be far more impressed if those who say they are willing to spend $10,000 for an "R10" ponied up their $10K to form a pooled escrow account (instead of signing a petition), and then went to Rudy Spiller and Andrew Kaufmann and said, "We'll invest this in the design and production of a R-mount digital SLR - ROI to be one new body for each of the members of the pool + one lens of our choice."

 

100 "R investors" = $1,000,000

 

Remember that vacuum-cleaner CEO who said "I liked the product so much - I bought the company!"?

great proposal,if we make it 5000 euros i'm in.

[andybarton]

And you reckon €500,000 will cover the R&D etc, and give you a camera with a lens at the end of it?

 

Leica were some way down the route of designing an R10. I bet that there's a box of bits sitting on someone's shelf, somewhere in Portugal or Solms. But, €500,000 wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface of how much money will be required to take these early sub-alpha models and turn them into product.

 

If you could get the 10,000 people mooted here (as an annual sales figure - or was that in total...?), to stump up the €10,000 cost of the body only, then you might have a chance. They'd still have to buy the body when the development was done though.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

And you reckon €500,000 will cover the R&D etc, and give you a camera with a lens at the end of it?

 

Leica were some way down the route of designing an R10. I bet that there's a box of bits sitting on someone's shelf, somewhere in Portugal or Solms. But, €500,000 wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface of how much money will be required to take these early sub-alpha models and turn them into product.

 

If you could get the 10,000 people mooted here (as an annual sales figure - or was that in total...?), to stump up the €10,000 cost of the body only, then you might have a chance. They'd still have to buy the body when the development was done though.

 

Count a much-much-much higher figure of 10.000 R buyers -depending on price policy and product package.

if we accept your calculations for the R&D cost Leica would be closed when they develop M8 and will surely close within the next few days under the cost of S2,i think you have to rework your calculations.remind you that body and sensors and software are there and they have to be modified for the R9 body,not easy but not from scratch.

After all from the technology that Leica is developing for the S2 many other products have to emerge in various shapes and prices in order to cover the R&D cost,unless you believe that the sales of S2 alone can do that,i hope you don"t and definitely Leica dont believe that,so expect new products based on that technology and a DSLR is very much likely as the market is very profitable at that level.

[andybarton]

Who told you that the R10 was based upon the R9 body?

 

Sorry, but I think that this is a flight of fancy.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Who told you that the R10 was based upon the R9 body?

 

Sorry, but I think that this is a flight of fancy.

 

would be very bad idea if is not.(flight of fancy or not)it was told to me by just rational evaluation of a camera body R8/R9 that was designed with great future depth regarding functionality.

Those photographers that work with R8/R9 ergonomics they understand very well what are we talking about.

[andybarton]

I have an R8 sitting in front of me as I type this. I have also been a DMR owner for over 2 years, before I sold it last Autumn, in anticipation of the R10 coming this year. So, I know all about the ergonomics of these cameras, and using them with a digital back.

 

If it were as easy as just sticking a FF sensor on the DMR hinged back, don't you think that they would have done this already? If lots of knowledgeable people consider the M9 to be a stop-gap camera, what would they say about a replacement back door for a DMR?

 

Let's face it, although extremely clever and a beautiful bit of kit, with outstanding results, the DMR was a stop-gap itself. And one that will have cost Leica dear.

 

The R10 was to be a completely new, from the ground up, dSLR, with all the modern requirements of such a camera. It was part of the Project AFRika that has (almost) given us the S2 and the wide Summiluxes. It would have used the Maestro chip.

 

If Leica ever resurrect the R10 (which I severely doubt), they need to make it a baby S2, not a half brother of the DMR, which was more or less conceived in the last century.

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

I have an R8 sitting in front of me as I type this. I have also been a DMR owner for over 2 years, before I sold it last Autumn, in anticipation of the R10 coming this year. So, I know all about the ergonomics of these cameras, and using them with a digital back.

 

If it were as easy as just sticking a FF sensor on the DMR hinged back, don't you think that they would have done this already? If lots of knowledgeable people consider the M9 to be a stop-gap camera, what would they say about a replacement back door for a DMR?

 

Let's face it, although extremely clever and a beautiful bit of kit, with outstanding results, the DMR was a stop-gap itself. And one that will have cost Leica dear.

 

The R10 was to be a completely new, from the ground up, dSLR, with all the modern requirements of such a camera. It was part of the Project AFRika that has (almost) given us the S2 and the wide Summiluxes. It would have used the Maestro chip.

 

If Leica ever resurrect the R10 (which I severely doubt), they need to make it a baby S2, not a half brother of the DMR, which was more or less conceived in the last century.

 

totaly agree and propably that will happen and that next body will pay the bill for S2.

I suggest though to keep the excellent viewfinder of R8/R9 -accurate MF dslr is a very strong selling point and one of a kind in the market and much desired- and the functions related to EV adjustments and mirror lock up and brain in the program mode from the excellent R8/R9 design.

 

I fully suspect that the market of dslr are in a strange stir with all those HD recordings and Leica decided to delay the R digital 1st/to avoid canibalizing the S2 sales and 2nd/to observe how the dslr market will evolve after the HD recording-mania and the 100000asa sensitivity of latest Canons.

I'm not convinced that waiting much longer will bring benefits though.

On the other hand Leica users-buyers cannot deal with high numbers of purchasing S2,M9,R10 all at the same time but i suspect as Leica M9 got non ex leica users as buyers the same will happen with a Leica dslr expanding the client base of the company,most propably.

[andybarton]

Sorry. What evidence do you have that a manual focus dSLR is very much desired and in demand?

 

If they were, Canon or Nikon would have made one by now, as it would be very easy for them to do so. It would also be easy, I suspect, for them to make manual versions of their lens line up, since most can be manually focussed anyway. They haven't done this. For Nikon it would be especially easy as their old MF lenses from the 1970s and beyond, still fit their modern mounts.

 

The dSLR Market expects auto-focus. Lots of dSLR users never use their lenses in manual focus mode.

 

Leica had the chance to be world leaders in autofocus technology about 30 years ago, but they sold it.

[petermcwerner]

Andy,

 

I have an R8 sitting in front of me as I type this. I have also been a DMR owner for over 2 years, before I sold it last Autumn, in anticipation of the R10 coming this year. So, I know all about the ergonomics of these cameras, and using them with a digital back.

 

If it were as easy as just sticking a FF sensor on the DMR hinged back, don't you think that they would have done this already? If lots of knowledgeable people consider the M9 to be a stop-gap camera, what would they say about a replacement back door for a DMR?

 

Let's face it, although extremely clever and a beautiful bit of kit, with outstanding results, the DMR was a stop-gap itself. And one that will have cost Leica dear.

 

The R10 was to be a completely new, from the ground up, dSLR, with all the modern requirements of such a camera. It was part of the Project AFRika that has (almost) given us the S2 and the wide Summiluxes. It would have used the Maestro chip.

 

If Leica ever resurrect the R10 (which I severely doubt), they need to make it a baby S2, not a half brother of the DMR, which was more or less conceived in the last century.

 

Allow me to disagree with your vision. Keep your ambitions low! I would be satisfied with a FF Pana G1 which accepts R glass, possibly based on the M9 sensor, allows open aperture focusing and makes avail of the data transmitted by the lens electronics. That should not be too expensive to develop and it could be sold at a reasonable price.

 

If it sells well enough to pay for R/D and production costs (which I do not doubt), a more sophisticated model taking new AF, IS Leica lenses could follow without abandoning compatibility with old lenses and might open a new and interesting lens market for Leica.

 

Another possibility altogether would be a third party body made independently of Leica - say - Sony, Olympus, Samsung, Konica or other smaller player to work with existing Leica R lenses. Modifying one of their existing models should not be too expensive.

 

 

Cheers

Peter

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Sorry. What evidence do you have that a manual focus dSLR is very much desired and in demand?..............

 

Leica had the chance to be world leaders in autofocus technology about 30 years ago, but they sold it.

One evidence is the sales of M9 to new customers and the fact that i collect MF lenses and gradually they disappear and get higher and higher prices plus the sales of ZEISS ZF,ZE etc

are doing well .

 

How many times in professional assignments we discover that we lost the shot because the complexity of controlling the AF decided to focus not where we wanted.

AF is a plus and every next model in DSLR market has to have it and will be evaluated on its performance but think MEDIUM FORMAT digital performance to compare with.

Definitely will be AF but good MF will be an added value.

Also simpler solutions can spin the wheel for the moment as is posted in the post above .

We have to be patient and persistent as Leica moves from film to digital in small and so far impressive and clever steps.24X36 PANA G1 style body is not that impossible for the moment at prices that can sell high volumes.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sdai]

In all seriousness, I'd be far more impressed if those who say they are willing to spend $10,000 for an "R10" ponied up their $10K to form a pooled escrow account (instead of signing a petition), and then went to Rudy Spiller and Andrew Kaufmann and said, "We'll invest this in the design and production of a R-mount digital SLR - ROI to be one new body for each of the members of the pool + one lens of our choice."

 

100 "R investors" = $1,000,000

 

Remember that vacuum-cleaner CEO who said "I liked the product so much - I bought the company!"?

 

Before us R10 advocates need to worry, the S2 defendants needs to take action RIGHT NOW, they should pay upfront the FULL PRICE so Leica can start production, now THAT could give us a sense of seriousness.