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M8 Detail,Dynamic Range and Color

Guest guy_mancuso

By Guest guy_mancuso
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harmsr

harmsr

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Guy,

 

In these last two of yours between C1 & RawDeveloper, I would say C1 wins hands down unless the exposure or lighting changed.

 

In the RawDeveloper shot, the freckels and much of the facial detail is gone.

 

Ray

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rfleica

rfleica

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i really like the look of that zeiss pic. but then i am a huge fan of so many zeiss optics i have seen. mike, your comment re your 700 shots so far...and the problems...and your ongoing appreciation of the m8 despite them...is interesting. can't wait for the fixed version.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Guest guy_mancuso

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Brian is working on a profile for Raw developer now. I guess we are all waiting for better profiles and i wish Leica , C1 and company would just start loading us up with data ,firmware and profiles to get us going. Like watching grass grow here in the Desert.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Guest guy_mancuso

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Crap i just realized I do have a film camera , what the hell am i thinking. Too much M8 juice. ROTFLMAO.

 

Seriously I have NO idea what film is even out there:D

 

Don't laugh I'm not kidding

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LJL

LJL

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Guy,

First, thanks to you and many others (Jamie, Mark, Sean, and more) for all of your efforts, tests, guidance, suggestions, and shared pain.

 

I too have been struggling with the M8 sicne Nov 7. I shot a gig the next two evenings under perfect "Leica" conditions of low light, mixed light, quiet settings. Got some great shots, but also saw every problem folks have been discussing. I still will NOT give it up. The camera is great. The "fixes" are.....well, we still have yet to find out what and when and how. In the meantime, Jamie's profiles have saved the day a couple times. the filters do work wonders, but with some other color things needing tweaks. The banding, blobbing, streaking has to be fixed separately. The AWB is a total crap shoot, but that is why we shoot RAW, no?

 

That brings up the processing. I have been getting very odd little orthogonal artifacts with some C1 processing, but not with RAWDeveloper. I like how C1 handles some things, but love how RD does others. I normally use Aperture, but that may be a while for me to get back to given its lack of support so far. ACR just mangles colors and introduces lots of other artifacts. (I shoot mostly 1DsMkII and 1DMkII for my polo and equestrian stuff, and constantly struggle with the entire workflow issue.)

 

So, let's keep working for better profiles and curves (thanks to Brian), and at the same time, is anybody coming up with a more resaonable workflow than flipping into and out of all these apps?? I shoot about 2-4K shots per week with the 1-series bodies, only RAW, and that is killng me. The M8 has just brought the rest of my workflow to a slow crawl because of the constantly moving targets and tweaks and apps. Not looking for a silver bullet here, just some very good and usable apps, profles, curves, etc., to allow me to get on with the business of shooting and delivering. Any suggestions or insights?

 

This may be worse than watching grass grow in the desert....at least there it is predictable, like after a rain ;-)

 

LJ

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Jamie Roberts

Jamie Roberts

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{snipped}

That brings up the processing. I have been getting very odd little orthogonal artifacts with some C1 processing, but not with RAWDeveloper. I like how C1 handles some things, but love how RD does others. I normally use Aperture, but that may be a while for me to get back to given its lack of support so far. ACR just mangles colors and introduces lots of other artifacts. (I shoot mostly 1DsMkII and 1DMkII for my polo and equestrian stuff, and constantly struggle with the entire workflow issue.)

 

So, let's keep working for better profiles and curves (thanks to Brian), and at the same time, is anybody coming up with a more resaonable workflow than flipping into and out of all these apps?? I shoot about 2-4K shots per week with the 1-series bodies, only RAW, and that is killng me. {Snipped}LJ

 

Only a couple of thoughts here...

 

1) I don't know what artifacts you're seeing from C1 and the M8 but I'd love to know about them. Can you post an example or two?

 

2) I struggled with the 1ds2 for years, and part of the problem with that workflow and many thousands of shots is the file size. It's huge (ok, well, the DMR is the same). The M8 is better in that regard, I find.

 

3) If you set up C1 and take some care with your color management, your workflow can often skip Photoshop entirely. It really can. I've often gone C1 --> RIP or C1--> Lab profile for output.

 

Can I get better results with a trip through PS? Yeah, but if I've got a good exposure, the difference is negligible in the print.

 

So I use C1 for selecting, proofing, tagging, moving and print-proofing shots. Depending on print process, then they go to PS.

 

4) The M8 is still new--you don't have the workflow options yet that you will in a couple of months. At least I hope so ;)

 

5) C1 V4 is supposed to be many times faster than v3...

 

A faster computer will solve a lot of this for me. I'm due the end of next year, and hopefully that means Vista is out and I can use, like 6GB of RAM to process shots. Gotta get some overkill in there somewhere to speed it up!

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LJL

LJL

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Carsten,

Thanks.....I have given it a test, and I will admit it is not bad, but LR is not like AA for a better conversion and workflow on the 1-series that I have seen. The M8 may be a different story. My bigger worry right now is watching my entire workflow come apart to accommodate another very incredible camera. (Yeah, such a problem...)

 

From what I am seeing so far, and for the kinds of things I need to do, C1 and RAW Developer are both doing a very nice job on the M8 files. LR tended to have the colors way, way off, and that was more work gettiing things back to balance, as you noted.

 

As it stands, I am thinking that I will wind up developing two different workflows depending on the cameras used for the shoot. Not the best solution, but it is making more sense for me right now. The bigger issue is that only Aperture and PS have a good spotting brush/clone tool. (LR is getting there.) Big difference is that Aperture's tool is very cumbersome, but it is non-destructive. The PS clone tool is for use on tiff/psd files, and is destructive by moving pixels around. Much faster, but no turning back later.

 

As Jamie pointed out, there will be more development all around, but the dust is not settling fast enough for some ;-)

 

LJ

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Guest guy_mancuso

Guest guy_mancuso

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I really think the biggest holdup for me at least is the Raw processing and the profiles. I have been able to work the camera and it's issue with no problems at all it is getting the files out is been the hard part. I hear what you are saying LJ we certainly are at the stand still stage

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LJL

LJL

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Jamie,

Thanks for your thoughts. I will try to work up an example of the orthogonal artifacts. I just spotted them the other day on a shot that I took. Looks like "L" and "T" pattern type things when you pixel peep. Not everywhere. At first I thought it was a sharpening artifact or something, but it is there with all sharpening off. Let me see if I can find the example.

 

On your other points.....I appreciate the suggestions, and will see how they work. You are correct, the bigger issue with the 1-series cameras are the file sizes, especially at the volume I am shoothing there. (My Apple G5 dual with 8GB RAM has the fans on a lot, as do the multiple RAID 5 drive cases.)

 

My routine is a bit "backwards" from other event type shooters. I actually process the selects that get posted. Makes the print delivery a breeze, as things are ready to hit the RIP and printer whenever I need to. I do this to get consistency in image, versus posting a non-processed JPEG and then working the images up whenever folks order. Long story, but it works well for my operation....just takes time.) That means cropping, straightening and retouching as part of the workflow, not just color balance and such. C1 (LE version right now) lacks the straightening tool, and a clone tool for fixing uglies. RD has the straightening tool, but lacks the clone tool. Aperture has both, but does not support the M8...yet? Lightroom gets most of it, but I have not liked the conversions as much from it compared to C1 or RD.

 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. It is nice to hear how others work their files. The M8 presents a different kind of capture and output compared to the volume I now handle with the 1-series event shooting and hauling around the 400/2.8L IS monster lens. Really like two completely different businesses at times.

 

LJ

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kevin m

kevin m

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I found this picture somewhere in this forum, i dont think this image screams digital, do you...? And yes it was shot with an M8...

 

Alexander, you're right, it doesn't scream digital. It does murmur it a bit, though. As someone else said, something about the artificiality of the grain pattern. It triggers a subliminal response in me, I think. But without you telling me so, I might not have recognized it as digital capture right away.

 

I remember driving on a country highway one time and glancing over to see a dog trotting thru cornfield stubble. I turned my eyes back down the road only to immediately have my head snap back of its own volition to look at the dog again. It wasn't a dog at all, but a coyote. In half a second driving 50 mph, some part of my brain registered "not a dog." I pulled over to watch him and tried to make a mental list off the visual clues that informed me that the dog was in fact a coyote. His gait. The way he held his tail, etc.. But it was funny that even though I couldn't have named one of those traits just minutes before, some primitive part of my brain instictively knew what they were.

 

It's too often the same way with digital capture. I don't know why I have a 'something's not right here' reaction, but I do. The perfect uniformity of the grain? The plastic look to human skin? The hyper-detailed, but rather two-dimensional look? I dunno. All I know is that unless it's been processed by someone who knows what he's doing (and the available evidence indicates that there aren't too many who do) then it leaves me cold. These M8 pics included. The M8 images posted here, with a couple of notable exceptions, have much more in common with common DSLR snaps than they do with an M7 loaded with film. So when someone here says they're "film-like," I have to assume they mean, 'compared to a D70.' :)

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kevin m

kevin m

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Jamie, as I said before, I admire your post-processing skills, (if I could do what you can, I might be tempted to dump my film gear :D ) but I don't think it's correct to claim that your street scene exhibits medium format film tonality. In fact, I'm very much tempted to pick up some MF gear at the throw away prices some of the systems with no digital backs are going for.

 

And again, no insult intended, and I swear I'm not trolling. I'm just glad we can have this discussion here, beccause it would be nearly impossible on photo.net or the digital wedding forum. On second thought, scratch out "nearly." :rolleyes:

 

One last B&W film image, and I'm done for the day. This one is Fuji 1600 converted to B&W in PS using gradient map. (See! I'm not an anti-digital luddite!!) Looks a bit like Tri-X doesn't it? :)

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mwilliamsphotography

mwilliamsphotography

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Thanks for the kind comments Jamie and others.

 

Those using a scanner, should look into a diffusion scanner like the Minolta's with Scanhancer. Looks more like an optical print.

 

The link to the M8 B&W image posted of the young girl is from my pal Irakly who is in Russia teaching photography seminars ... that shot, taken in Moscow, was done at ISO 2500. Irakly is an absolute master of PhotoShop. We worked together to make the Contax ND sing a new tune, and I wish he were back here to tackle this camera.

 

After letting him shoot with the DMR, he became more interested in Leica. I then turned him onto the Ms, and he opted for the M8 over the DMR (because of his extensive teaching travels). Hope he is still my friend when he returns : -)

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pemayeux

pemayeux

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Crap i just realized I do have a film camera , what the hell am i thinking. Too much M8 juice. ROTFLMAO.

 

Seriously I have NO idea what film is even out there:D

 

Don't laugh I'm not kidding

 

they do still have Kodachrome 64, and while it is not K-25, it's the next best thing!

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