Jamie Roberts Posted November 28, 2006 Share #141 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guy, the conversions from Raw Developer just seem a little flat to me. Not lacking color, but somehow lacking the depth that is characteristically Leica. I can't put my finger on it, but I see it in your conversion and in mine too. I wrote it off initially to not knowing how to use the software (compared with Lightroom), but I'm starting to be a little less convinced. I'm not loving the skin tones from Lightroom, which I attribute to a mediocre profile, but the depth is there. Anyone want to explain a workflow for the software and suggest some curves or alternate profile for the DMR? For the DMR, if you want to see what a good skin-tone profile does, I'd use FlexColor, or use the FlexColor DMR profiles in C1. It's way better. But the one in C1 is good... I just work the file a bit more right now in PS... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 28, 2006 Posted November 28, 2006 Hi Jamie Roberts, Take a look here M8 Detail,Dynamic Range and Color . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mike prevette Posted November 28, 2006 Share #142 Posted November 28, 2006 iso/1250 1/15 40mm nokton at 1.4 I believe. JPG mode, no processing just a little curve fix in lightroom. The picture links to my flickr page with some other very 'film like" shots imho. _mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 28, 2006 Share #143 Posted November 28, 2006 Looks very nice Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_green Posted November 28, 2006 Share #144 Posted November 28, 2006 For the DMR, if you want to see what a good skin-tone profile does, I'd use FlexColor, or use the FlexColor DMR profiles in C1. It's way better. But the one in C1 is good... I just work the file a bit more right now in PS... Jamie, I agree completely, but to the best of my knowledge there is no workflow for FlexColor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 28, 2006 Share #145 Posted November 28, 2006 Jamie, I agree completely, but to the best of my knowledge there is no workflow for FlexColor. Hey Bill-- Yes, you can use FlexColor for workflow. You just have to work in their weird scratchpad / thumbnail view; you can do pretty much anything you can do in C1 with FlexColor. The way you do that is by saving custom develops / looks. You can then apply them to any other shot you want.. just like in C1. But the problem is there are bugs with FlexColor output--I get weird white noise on FlexColor shots--otherwise, I'd use it a lot more. The workaround is that you can use the DMR profiles from FlexColor instead of the C1 profile. After I get the M8 thing straightened out I'm going to play with the DMR profile anyway.. just to get the family resemblance back Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 28, 2006 Share #146 Posted November 28, 2006 NIce shot Dan! why is everyone struggling to make digital capture look like film? Why not just shoot film? There are some nice digital shots here .... none of them look like film ... maybe, like someone said earlier, everyone's just been away from film for too long. Love digital. Love film. two different looks, feels, and types of visual response. Some B&W film stuff ... all Leica 35mm film work: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/10073-m8-detaildynamic-range-and-color/?do=findComment&comment=106153'>More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 28, 2006 Share #147 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have been away from it too long , I have to admit. Grain Yuk . Just kidding Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 28, 2006 Share #148 Posted November 28, 2006 Beautiful shot Jamie. I know we're viewing via a web browser but from my browser window, this shot reminds me of a Hasseblad capture - high res scanned MF film. Just my humble opinion. Also, one question...what do you mean by a little film curve tweak in PS? I'd like to get this look from my B&W and would appreciate the info. Thanks. Steve, Heh heh heh ... you're forcing me to reveal some secrets, here! I'm glad you think it looks like MF scanned film, because it does to me too; it's got a bit of that glow... Ok, so film has a ton of built-in processing that we all know about but have forgotten entirely Generality alert--but here goes nothing... IMO, print film to the negative (not including the print process) has a slow and long S curve that controls the basic contrast and density of the negative. Heck--the film folks published all that stuff, because you needed to know it in different circumstances. Somtimes it looks more like an "f" curve because the shadows clip (at different color points) so severely. This accounts for the blackpoint contrast film has... digital just goes down smoothly (and eventually noisily)... Anyway, basic "film curves" settings in C1 (another reason I like it)--do this: they expand or contract an S curve to give you more or less tonal compression and contrast. But print film has what? 8-10 stops of information in an average develop? So the long slow ride to the highlights up that curve is very gradual, and--especially in 35mm film--you don't get the mid-tone gap you might see in digital. That's where a lot of folks think digital cameras go plastic. But in truth, your digicam has a different sensor response (linear, not curved) and has less information to work with--5-6 stops for a lot of dSLRs out there. So the trick is to redistribute the values along a film-like curve. Complicating matters are the fact that film has a different curve colors--red greens and blues all react differently to light; panchromatic BWs are all balanced a little differently too (and then you throw a yellow filter on and you mess again!). So here's what you can try... 1) develop in C1 in "film extra shadow" which already unrolls the "toe" of the s-curve. 2) when you get a nice, flat contrast you like, go to PS. Now here is where a camera like the M8 comes in. It *has* most of the tonal detail that film has. Even still, the highlights out of the RAW processor in skin tones are bound to be a little too bright-ish, even with a camera like the M8 (or the DMR / 5d / 1ds2, come to that--they all have a lot more exposure range than most digitals). 3) so I used a wee contrast -flattening curve--looks like a negative bowl--just on her cheeks just to bring out more detail in the skin, without killing the glow of the lens. I did this on the lumnosity channel, so as not to disturb the color balance. Make sense? It's a very small tweak. You might open up the eyes a bit too. This takes wayyy longer to describe than to do, actually! See--once you know what film people like, you can do all kinds of stuff. Like desaturated Fuji? Like Provia or Astia for portraits? Ok, then you have to clip the exposure curves at different points for every colour channel RGB, put the S curve in there, make sure the contrast curve is negative (Don Lashier's inverted hockey stick in C1), clip the highlights differently for RGB... and you get this out of the RAW processor (color this time). But no plastics in the upper midtones. Oh--grain helps smooth out the tonal response too. And that's the hardest thing to emulate, IMO. Alien Skin does a great job of it, though... If I wanted to push the tonal response more I'd buy the Alien Skin exposure plug-in--they've codified a lot of film responses. ... Here's one processed for a 35mm Fuji print film response (kind of what I think Kevin might like). A very small amount of grain added in PS. 3 minutes work on this one Again, the main point here is that the M8 has the detail in the shot--which is amazing to me! Heh--I just saw Marc's post, and he's right too. I don't usually try to do this, but sometimes it's useful to know your range of processing. And the point is, I can process the M8 in ways I can't other dSLRs... or at least not as much! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/10073-m8-detaildynamic-range-and-color/?do=findComment&comment=106168'>More sharing options...
atufte Posted November 28, 2006 Share #149 Posted November 28, 2006 For Kevin I found this picture somewhere in this forum, i dont think this image screams digital, do you...? And yes it was shot with an M8... http://www.leica-camera-user.com/attachments/digital-forum/14181d1162936047-m8-warm-fuzzy-thread-1749689.jpg I think it's all about what we can do in the "dark/lightroom", remember some of the masters of the "film era" back in the days spent copious amounts of time tweaking and working with just one picture at a time in the darkroom to get some of the results that have amazed us for all these years, if you know your way around in PS and spend the same amount of time in today's "dark/lightroom" you can get at least similar results or should even be able to make it better with today's tools... The problem with digital in general (personally speaking), i think it makes "some of us" just to freakin lazy and just spoiled by "it's simplicity"... Best Regards Alexander Tufte http://www.alexandertufte.com Jamie, your street scene pic makes it difficult to tell what the capture medium was, and that's a compliment to your post processing skills. It does seem like a fair amount of trouble, though. I have to say, though, that your B&W portrait and Guy's snapshots of the kids still scream 'digital' to me. The skin tones, in particular. I'll respond with another casual snapshot that demonstrates the skin tones I like, and that only film seems able to deliver. Fuji Pro 400, Noritsu JPEG scan, mild sharpening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 28, 2006 Share #150 Posted November 28, 2006 Skin by DuPont, yuk. Just kidding. : -) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 28, 2006 Share #151 Posted November 28, 2006 NIce shot Dan! why is everyone struggling to make digital capture look like film? Why not just shoot film? There are some nice digital shots here .... none of them look like film ... maybe, like someone said earlier, everyone's just been away from film for too long. Love digital. Love film. two different looks, feels, and types of visual response. Some B&W film stuff ... all Leica 35mm film work: Great shots Marc. Nice full-contrast film--beautiful None of them look like Tech. Pan either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 28, 2006 Share #152 Posted November 28, 2006 I found this picture somewhere in this forum, i dont think this image screams digital, do you...? And yes it was shot with an M8... http://www.leica-camera-user.com/attachments/digital-forum/14181d1162936047-m8-warm-fuzzy-thread-1749689.jpg I'm no Kevin, Alexander ... but the evenly spread noise pattern tells all about what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 28, 2006 Share #153 Posted November 28, 2006 None of them look like Tech. Pan either Now the whole world knows about Marc's obsessive love over Tri-X ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted November 28, 2006 Share #154 Posted November 28, 2006 NIce shot Dan! why is everyone struggling to make digital capture look like film? Why not just shoot film? There are some nice digital shots here .... none of them look like film ... maybe, like someone said earlier, everyone's just been away from film for too long. Love digital. Love film. two different looks, feels, and types of visual response. Some B&W film stuff ... all Leica 35mm film work: Marc, Thank you - and you hit the nail on the head with your post, and your images. Nice stuff. I miss that look sometimes....must...shoot....tri-x soon. Lol! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 28, 2006 Share #155 Posted November 28, 2006 Here's one processed for a 35mm Fuji print film response (kind of what I think Kevin might like). A very small amount of grain added in PS. 3 minutes work on this one Good shot, Jamie ... now I need a magnifier to search for some film scratches. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 28, 2006 Share #156 Posted November 28, 2006 No I am not buying a M7 now. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted November 28, 2006 Share #157 Posted November 28, 2006 21mm zeiss 2.8; 1250 iso and a horribly under exposed jpg. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 28, 2006 Share #158 Posted November 28, 2006 Was that banding, Mike? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted November 28, 2006 Share #159 Posted November 28, 2006 YUP. I get it in about 80% of my shots. I'm about 700 shots and a week into M8 ownership and I've seen every issue mentioned on here, and a few they haven't. All things considered though I am loving this camera. It has the most natural noise/grain pattern of any digital camera I've ever shot. _mike Flickr: Photos from mike@freedomfromgravity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 28, 2006 Share #160 Posted November 28, 2006 That's something like a Hollywood screen capture despite the obvious defect, Mike ... the Zeiss certainly has its own look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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