viramati Posted October 18, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 18, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just wondering how accurate on the framelines on the M9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Hi viramati, Take a look here framelines. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
el.nino Posted October 18, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 18, 2009 as much as they have to. there is no such thing as "acurate framelines" on a rangefinder camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted October 18, 2009 thanks for the non answer!! The M8 framelines are optimised for 1m and there were a lot of complaints so they were changed for the 8.2, which I have, so I was wondering how people find them on the the full-frame M9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el.nino Posted October 18, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 18, 2009 hehe... short question - short answer. actually the framelines on the M8 where optimized for 0,7m and that was changed (on the M8.2) to 2m. the ones on the M9 are optimized for 1m and thats the same as on all the film Ms (since the late M4Ps). the only difference on film Ms is, that they where optimized for 23x35mm (mounted slide) - the ones on the M9 go for the full 24x36mm format. I compared it on the M6, MP (with MP-3 framelines retrofitted - special 24x36 version) and M9. M9 and MP were very similiar - the ones on the M6 much smaller, so i don't think there is anything to complain about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted October 18, 2009 thanks (keeping it short) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 18, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 18, 2009 I did a test Saturday of the 75 lines (always the most troublesome), and they are as accurate as they can be - at .75 meters (75 'lux) the image area is already slightly smaller than what the frames cover (I.E. a tiny amount is missing in the final picture all around that appeared to be included according to the framelines.) So one would not want the lines to be any looser than they are. At 2.5 meters the extra amount in the final picture is about 5%. I noticed the M9 instruction manual is now very clear in pointing out that the lines are variably accurate depending on subject distance, and in giving guidance on how to compensate. At long distances, allow 3 frameline thicknesses OUTSIDE the lines to find the actual edge of the final shot. At minimum focus, allow 1 frameline thickness INSIDE the lines (which corresponds to the test I mentioned). In general I find the M9 lines to be a good compromise, especially with 18 Mpixels to crop from if required for distant shots. A compensating crop still leaves well over 16 Mpixels in the image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 18, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 18, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) They're as accurate as they were on the M8. The only difference is the distance at which they are accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 19, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 19, 2009 I do think the 135 mm framelines could be optimized better - one really is better off with the 90 mm ones at infinity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 19, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 19, 2009 I..... the M9 instruction manual is now very clear in pointing out that the lines are variably accurate depending on subject distance...... Andy - A bit of corporate spin wizardry if ever there was. The M8 frameline settings were daft. The M8.2 was an improvement. The M9 has gone back to daft. One Spinner's 'variable accuracy' is another man's 'hopeless inaccuracy'. ............... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted October 19, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 19, 2009 Andy - A bit of corporate spin wizardry if ever there was. The M8 frameline settings were daft. The M8.2 was an improvement. The M9 has gone back to daft. One Spinner's 'variable accuracy' is another man's 'hopeless inaccuracy'. ............... Chris The M8 (at least my two copies) were quite accurate when focused at the calibrated distance. After using them for a year I was able to compose with a high level of consistency, though it may help that I generally stick to a few basic lenses and get to know them, and their corresponding framelines, well. Now when one of my M8s had to go in for repair and I got an M8.2 loaner, that made things tricky. I was so used to the M8 frames that I was cutting out body parts with the 8.2 and it's differently-calibrated framelines. What IS daft is that they keep going back and forth. I hope all future models will stick to the 1M calibration, so we'll be able to use the recent film M cameras, the M9 and M10, etc., side-by-side without issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 19, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 19, 2009 If we are going to avoid spin, leaving out the loaded words like "corporate spin wizardry", "daft" and 'hopeless inaccuracy" would be a good place to start. Unless, of course, one is bucking to be the Glenn Beck of the LUF. Leica's explanation in the M9 instruction book is pretty much exactly what was in the instructions for every film M from 1954 on. The framelines are accurate at one distance only, and other distances require an estimated correction. If the lines were set for 2m, or for 10m, or for infinity, Leica would still have to diagram how to estimate for other distances. I.E., if it is "spin," it would still be "spin" if they'd kept the M8.2 lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted October 19, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 19, 2009 What IS daft is that they keep going back and forth. I hope all future models will stick to the 1M calibration, so we'll be able to use the recent film M cameras, the M9 and M10, etc., side-by-side without issues. What IS daft is that they went back. The M8.2 framelines are optimal at a typical portrait distance, still quite accurate at group-shot distance, and somewhat constrained at typical landscape distance but not nearly so much as the M8 or M9. The M8 and M9 are optimal at the closest focusing distance of each focal length, which I firmly suggest is perhaps the least-used setting that most photographers use, and beyond that grow progressively constrained to the point where the framelines are simply a pointless obstruction at infinity. I suspect however, that part of Leica's reasoning in backstepping against the preference of many professionals, was to placate the weekend duffers who still take their film Leicas for photo outings along with their lovely new M9. I suppose that sounds harsh, but for once in the past nearly-half-century we pros actually got Leica to listen to us again, only to have them pull the carpet out from under us in short order...as they did likewise deleting the top-plate display in favour of a stair-step of no apparent function other than eye-appeal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 19, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 19, 2009 The M8 and M9 are optimal at the closest focusing distance of each focal length, Incorrect. The M9 framelines are optimal for 1 meter, which is the closest focus distance only for 90mm lenses and two old 35/50 f/1.4 designs. 135s focus to 1.5 meters, the other 90% of M lenses focus to .7 or .75 meters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 20, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 20, 2009 Right, and the Noctilux f/1 also has a near distance of 1m. I don't know about the f/1,2 and f/0,95 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted October 20, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 20, 2009 It's too soon to tell for sure, but I'm finding the M9 framelines pretty easy to work with. They are, in fact, somewhere between the M8 and M8.2 in coverage, and anyone using the M9 alone or with film cameras should have no trouble adapting. I've had the camera less than a day and I'm already pretty confident about framing. Does anyone know if Leica will remove individual framelines from the M9? I'd love to get rid of the 75mm and maybe 135mm framelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 20, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 20, 2009 Just for the record, "removing" framelines means covering up some of the slits in the frameline mask. I've always thought it a bit weird to speak of removing empty space, (sort of like saying a P&S camera has a fixed zoom lens) but such is language... It is something Leica does in a la carte and did even before a la carte. Also, top-end third-party service shops like Sherri Krauter (sp?) and DAG have done it in the past. So technically/mechanically it is not hard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el.nino Posted October 20, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 20, 2009 It is something Leica does in a la carte and did even before a la carte. actually leica does not "remove" framelines in the a la carte program. they "just" install another mask. so you don't have every option - just the ones in the a la carte program. and i'm pretty sure thatthe film-frameline-masks can't be used in the M9. so no a la carte option yet. but yes, any non-official leica repair-man can do this for you by just covering up the not wanted framelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted October 22, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 22, 2009 Incorrect. The M9 framelines are optimal for 1 meter, which is the closest focus distance only for 90mm lenses and two old 35/50 f/1.4 designs. 135s focus to 1.5 meters, the other 90% of M lenses focus to .7 or .75 meters. Well in that case the M9 is not calibrated the way film Leicas (M6, M7, MP) are calibrated, which will be a bane to anyone who intends to shoot them together. Pity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 22, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 22, 2009 Yep - it is unfortunate that Leica cannot build 1,000 individual frameline sets to suit the tastes of 1,000 different individuals (a la carte notwithstanding). Somebody will be upset regardless of which distance they pick. At least for the M9 (and I guess the M8.2) Leica quit allowing for cropping by non-existent slide mounts and negative carriers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 22, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 22, 2009 I understood the changes of framelines in the M9 as being very close to the same way they used to do the film Ms like the M6. Is someone in a position to check on this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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