New M9 - with column defect

[35mmSummicron]

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I've had a dead pixel here or there on CMOS dSLRs over the years (but not an entire column). If deadpixels/column defects are a fact of life for CCD's then Leica should create a solution to allow users to easily map them out.

 

The only solution right now for M8/M8.2/M9 is to send the camera in, which essentially gets replaced......such a waste of resources/time.

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[jonoslack]

I've had a dead pixel here or there on CMOS dSLRs over the years (but not an entire column). If deadpixels/column defects are a fact of life for CCD's then Leica should create a solution to allow users to easily map them out.

 

The only solution right now for M8/M8.2/M9 is to send the camera in, which essentially gets replaced......such a waste of resources/time.

 

I couldn't agree more - Olympus have had this for years (and others I think as well).

[Guest EarlBurrellPhoto]

I couldn't agree more - Olympus have had this for years (and others I think as well).

 

The Epson R-D1-S has it, and it was made available to the original R-D1 in a firmware update, so it could probably be done for the M8/8.2 and M9.

[wookchang]

Mine shows the very same problem.

I took a snap at a restaurant with an ISO setting of 1,000 and noticed a line on the right hand side of the picture.

I checked other high ISO shots only to find the very same column defect.

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[Googaliser]

Mine shows the very same problem.

I took a snap at a restaurant with an ISO setting of 1,000 and noticed a line on the right hand side of the picture.

I checked other high ISO shots only to find the very same column defect.

 

I'm really sorry to hear this - hope you're dealer can be as acommodating as mine was.

 

Rgds

[Shootist]

I'm really sorry to hear this - hope you're dealer can be as acommodating as mine was.

 

Rgds

 

 

Please lets stop talking about dealers being accommodating and lets start talking about Leica fixing this problem before the camera get to the end users.

 

 

I love shooting with a Leica, it is the only cameras I own. But I am now starting to see why some posters have always talked about the apologists on this forum.

 

This is not a dealer problem, it is a Leica probelm as it was with the M8. It is not one dead pixel causing this. It can not be mapped out. Once your camera goes out of warranty, no matter how many users report this problem and get it fixed inside the warranty period, Leica is going to try and charge you for a sensor replacement. Because that is the only way they know how to fix it. But it will happen again and again and again.

[wookchang]

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I'm really sorry to hear this - hope you're dealer can be as acommodating as mine was.

 

Rgds

 

This morning I left my defective M9 with the dealer, and I do not have any luck.

I was told that they have to make an inquiry to, and wait for an instruction from, Solms.

I don't know how long it will take.

 

What a waste of my time and resources!!

 

Mr. Daniel,

 

if you're reading this thread, please do your best to rectify this situation as a product manager. I've been using Leica for last 40 some years, and I think quality control under your helm is worst at best.

 

What a shame!!

[Googaliser]

Please lets stop talking about dealers being accommodating and lets start talking about Leica fixing this problem before the camera get to the end users.

 

 

I love shooting with a Leica, it is the only cameras I own. But I am now starting to see why some posters have always talked about the apologists on this forum.

 

This is not a dealer problem, it is a Leica probelm as it was with the M8. It is not one dead pixel causing this. It can not be mapped out. Once your camera goes out of warranty, no matter how many users report this problem and get it fixed inside the warranty period, Leica is going to try and charge you for a sensor replacement. Because that is the only way they know how to fix it. But it will happen again and again and again.

 

Well, I respectfully suggest that you start your own thread rather than try to dictate how I address other users in a thread I started.

 

There are two issues that need to be considered when the owner of new camera discovers a fault. One, the personal (and/or professional $$) impact & sense of disappointment of not being able to use your camera due to an issue with it (and since you only own a Leica - I am sure you can relate to this). It was this that I was empathising with because I am a photographer and I am personally using every free moment I have using and planning projects for the M9. The excitement of having new creative vistas opened-up by such a camera is a crushing thing to have put on hold because of an issue. That's the human element - and that for me is important and the one I was empathizing with. The most timely solution to this is an understanding dealer - thats a fact.

 

The second issue - the one I think you were getting at whilst also dismissing my empathy for the first- is whether such problems from a newly released camera are acceptable - particularly given the premium brand and price point. Now you are of course welcome to your view on this. I personally think it is too early to make categoric statements about the M9 and how Leica will respond to issues out of warranty. How they dealt with M8 owners' issues may serve as a proxy - but only if you assume that Leica are static, don't learn from past experience, and don't follow forums such as this. If that is the case - then we vote with our feet.

[Shootist]

Well, I respectfully suggest that you start your own thread rather than try to dictate how I address other users in a thread I started.

 

There are two issues that need to be considered when the owner of new camera discovers a fault. One, the personal (and/or professional $$) impact & sense of disappointment of not being able to use your camera due to an issue with it (and since you only own a Leica - I am sure you can relate to this). It was this that I was empathising with because I am a photographer and I am personally using every free moment I have using and planning projects for the M9. The excitement of having new creative vistas opened-up by such a camera is a crushing thing to have put on hold because of an issue. That's the human element - and that for me is important and the one I was empathizing with. The most timely solution to this is an understanding dealer - thats a fact.

 

The second issue - the one I think you were getting at whilst also dismissing my empathy for the first- is whether such problems from a newly released camera are acceptable - particularly given the premium brand and price point. Now you are of course welcome to your view on this. I personally think it is too early to make categoric statements about the M9 and how Leica will respond to issues out of warranty. How they dealt with M8 owners' issues may serve as a proxy - but only if you assume that Leica are static, don't learn from past experience, and don't follow forums such as this. If that is the case - then we vote with our feet.

 

As to your second comment.

It is clear to me Leica had not learnt from the past. With the M8 they had green blobs, IR issues, sudden death syndrome, freezes/lock ups, faulty on/off switch (and or internal electronic) problems where the camera would not fully turn on unless you hit the shutter release, line in the image (just like yours), shutter failures and broken shutters (torn shutter blades) without, so the users say, the users causing it. To top it off the camera is slow to do most anything.

 

With the M9 we have freezes/lock ups, lines in the sensor, faulty internal electronics (camera will not save settings and this is where the lock ups happen) and the camera is just as slow as the M8. It has yet to be seen what other faults the M9 will develope.

 

So what has Leica learnt? That a true Leica NUT will buy one anyway (and yes that includes me but I am truly thinking of waiting for the M10 and see how that fairs and just enjoy my M8 until it dies) so he/she can say I own a Leica M# and the images are just wonderful (which they are).

 

As to your first comment. I will post anything I want to any thread I want as long as it is in my opinion, from reading, personal experience, and common sense, factual.

If that bothers you then I suggest you place me on your ignore list. That way you don't have to read my comments.

 

Thank you.

[jonoslack]

Please lets stop talking about dealers being accommodating and lets start talking about Leica fixing this problem before the camera get to the end users.

 

This is a problem which can occur at any time - I've seen it happen recently to a two year old camera - it simply isn't possible to make sure that it doesn't happen (why would other camera manufacturers have automatic pixel mapping in their firmware otherwise?)

 

 

It is not one dead pixel causing this. It can not be mapped out. Once your camera goes out of warranty, no matter how many users report this problem and get it fixed inside the warranty period, Leica is going to try and charge you for a sensor replacement. Because that is the only way they know how to fix it. But it will happen again and again and again.

 

Actually, I have talked to a senior member of the tecnical staff at leica in Germany, and I was told that the column defect can be mapped out.

 

I certainly think that they should put pixel mapping into the firmware, like almost all other companies do. It would save them lots of wasted time and us lots of grief and relieve you of the excuse to keep on stating incorrect information as a fact!

[Shootist]

This is a problem which can occur at any time - I've seen it happen recently to a two year old camera - it simply isn't possible to make sure that it doesn't happen (why would other camera manufacturers have automatic pixel mapping in their firmware otherwise?)

 

 

 

Actually, I have talked to a senior member of the tecnical staff at leica in Germany, and I was told that the column defect can be mapped out.

 

I certainly think that they should put pixel mapping into the firmware, like almost all other companies do. It would save them lots of wasted time and us lots of grief and relieve you of the excuse to keep on stating incorrect information as a fact!

 

 

Please point me to other cameras that have this line problem, not dead pixel problems.

To my knowledge I have never heard of any other camera that has this line problem.

 

If it is so easy to map out the dead/bad pixel/s that are causing the Leica M8 & M9 line problem, and Leica knows how to do it along with the software to do it, why are they replacing sensors and not giving the owner the options to have either the sensor changed, $1200+/-, or for the problem pixel/s mapped out.

I can see why they are replacing the sensors in cameras that are still under warranty but after the warranty runs out they should give the owner the option.

 

Talk is cheap, so me the goods.

[xrogers]

As to your second comment.

It is clear to me Leica had not learnt from the past.

 

My M8 has been my favorite camera for three years now, capable of stunning results from the day I got it. Still, its introduction was less than perfectly smooth.

 

In the first month of M8 shipments, we had:

- Relatively frequent freezeups (some freezeups required leaving the battery out for several days)

- Occasionally a camera would mess up its firmware to the point that it could not reload firmware, requiring a trip back to Solms for reinstall

- Lines though bright highlights (resulting in stopped production and a recall)

- Green bar from sensor edge bright highlights

- Discovery by customers of surprising degree of IR sensitivity (resulting in a need for unavailable filters and lots of firmware work)

- Unusually bad auto white balance

- Occasional defective sensors (the lines)

- Occasional shutter failures

 

In the first month of M9 shipments, we have:

- Occasional comparatively innocuous freezeups

- Occasional defective sensors (the lines)

 

Although there is room for improvement, perhaps Leica has learned a thing or two.

 

The M9 looks pretty sweet.

 

Later,

 

Clyde

[jonoslack]

Please point me to other cameras that have this line problem, not dead pixel problems.

To my knowledge I have never heard of any other camera that has this line problem.

 

If it is so easy to map out the dead/bad pixel/s that are causing the Leica M8 & M9 line problem, and Leica knows how to do it along with the software to do it, why are they replacing sensors and not giving the owner the options to have either the sensor changed, $1200+/-, or for the problem pixel/s mapped out.

I can see why they are replacing the sensors in cameras that are still under warranty but after the warranty runs out they should give the owner the option.

 

Talk is cheap, so me the goods.

 

I do think the line is often related to one dead pixel though (at least, it is on both an M9 (it came for a week or so and then went again) and my M8u which took 3 years to develop it) . . . and yes, I have had the problem on two cameras.

 

I'm not sure that people ARE having sensors changed though, I think perhaps that's an assumption you are making. Perhaps they didn't have the facility to map it out some time ago, but they do now?

 

Whatever - if you aren't going to believe what I'm saying, there isn't much point in saying it is there!

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not an apologist, I don't think it's okay, I'd love to see a firmware fix. It's your assumptions that:

 

1. it can always be picked up in the factory before shipping

2. it necessarily requires a new sensor.

 

I think are based on guessing and hearsay - my cheap talk is at least based on talking cheaply!

[delander †]

When I sent my M8 in for the line problem (developed after 18 months of use) the paperwork that came back stated that 'The factory have carried out the necessary repairs to the CCD'. Those words were from Leica UK.

 

That would indicate to me that the problem was mapped out.

 

Nearly all DSLRs are CMOS now so I dont know if this a problem associated with CCDs but I thought that all sensors have a percentage of dead pixels which are mapped out during the camera manufacture. It maybe that companies like Canon actually have installed firmware which includes an invisible (to the user) function which checks and maps out the problem if it occurs.

 

It seems that Leica should try to implement a mapping out function in the cameras FW or at least arrange for this service to be conducted in, for instance, Leica UK and other susidiaries/agents.

 

I dare not look too carefully at my new M9 in case I find this.

 

 

Jeff

[Shootist]

I do think the line is often related to one dead pixel though (at least, it is on both an M9 (it came for a week or so and then went again) and my M8u which took 3 years to develop it) . . . and yes, I have had the problem on two cameras.

 

I'm not sure that people ARE having sensors changed though, I think perhaps that's an assumption you are making. Perhaps they didn't have the facility to map it out some time ago, but they do now?

 

Whatever - if you aren't going to believe what I'm saying, there isn't much point in saying it is there!

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not an apologist, I don't think it's okay, I'd love to see a firmware fix. It's your assumptions that:

 

1. it can always be picked up in the factory before shipping

2. it necessarily requires a new sensor.

 

I think are based on guessing and hearsay - my cheap talk is at least based on talking cheaply!

 

 

On both my M8 the paper work stated "Sensor Replaced" and that is what I heard from all but the post above.

 

No hearsay, here are the invoices from both my M8's.

Note the text between the red lines.

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[jonoslack]

On both my M8 the paper work stated "Sensor Replaced" and that is what I heard from all but the post above.

 

No hearsay, here are the invoices from both my M8's.

Note the text between the red lines.

[ATTACH]168023[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]168024[/ATTACH]

 

Hi There

I'm only reporting what I'm told and what I understand . . . so, either they've recently been able to map these things out . . . or your problem was different . . . or one of us is getting bad information.

 

I sincerely hope that they now can map out these problems, because it's the right answer for all,

[adan]

Let me add some info from my Leica rep, as of today:

 

There is a very specific vertical line issue that occurs only at ISO 2500, and is always a vertical line near the right side of a horizontal picture - about 3 mm in from the right side. This has been determined to be a reading error that can be addressed with a firmware fix. I.E. it is not really a "pixel" issue but a burp getting the data off the sensor at that location at that ISO. Which is why it so consistent, whereas bad pixels would be be far more random in location.

 

(BTW, my M9 is so afflicted - only at that location and at ISO 2500).

 

If anyone is getting a line elsewhere in the frame - THAT may be a sensor problem requiring replacement. Or not. Let Leica know what you are getting and where so they can build a track record - if another consistent pattern shows up it may also be something addressable in firmware.

[wookchang]

Let me add some info from my Leica rep, as of today:

 

There is a very specific vertical line issue that occurs only at ISO 2500, and is always a vertical line near the right side of a horizontal picture - about 3 mm in from the right side. This has been determined to be a reading error that can be addressed with a firmware fix. I.E. it is not really a "pixel" issue but a burp getting the data off the sensor at that location at that ISO. Which is why it so consistent, whereas bad pixels would be be far more random in location.

 

(BTW, my M9 is so afflicted - only at that location and at ISO 2500).

 

If anyone is getting a line elsewhere in the frame - THAT may be a sensor problem requiring replacement. Or not. Let Leica know what you are getting and where so they can build a track record - if another consistent pattern shows up it may also be something addressable in firmware.

 

I checked my shots, and cuts with ISO setting of 400, 640, 800 and 1,000 all have the very same column defect. I did not dare to use ISO setting above 1,000.

 

I don't think this defect is limited only to the ISO setting of 2,500.

 

Apparently this Leica rep has wrong information regarding this defect. No wonder the solution is slow coming.

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[jonoslack]

HI Andy

Thank you for that information

 

I checked my shots, and cuts with ISO setting of 400, 640, 800 and 1,000 all have the very same column defect. I did not dare to use ISO setting above 1,000.

 

I don't think this defect is limited only to the ISO setting of 2,500.

 

Apparently this Leica rep has wrong information regarding this defect. No wonder the solution is slow coming.

 

It seems obvious to me then that this is not a single issue - but two, or even more issues. Which would also explain why there are different responses.

 

Still, let us hope that at least some of this is fixable by firmware in the near future.

[ArtZ]

On both my M8 the paper work stated "Sensor Replaced" and that is what I heard from all but the post above.

 

No hearsay, here are the invoices from both my M8's.

Note the text between the red lines.

 

Ed,

 

You're right. Leica has also replaced the CCD sensor in my camera plus two "printed circuits". I suppose one of the printed circuits is the one with the sensor but I have no idea which one is the second one.

 

Apparently, according to the paper work, to replace the sensor, they have to replace the covering.

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