jonoslack Posted October 13, 2009 Share #21 Â Posted October 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Lets just say you and I don't agree on this topic and the thread is dead anyway since the OP got a replacement. Â Have a good day. Â Well - we can at least agree about that. you have a good day too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Hi jonoslack, Take a look here New M9 - with column defect. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
delander †Posted October 13, 2009 Share #22  Posted October 13, 2009 Actually as there are only a few hundred M9s out there and already 2 have been reported with the line problem that also happened with the M8 it does seem a rather high occurence (and Jono had it on his beta test camera).  The problem is one that both Leica and Kodak must be well aware of so I think its reasonable to assume that Leica fully checks the cameras for this problem, but that results of the check are somehow inaccurate. Leica would be foolish not be trying their utmost to resolve this, and I'm sure they are not foolish.  You never hear of this on the Phase or Hasslebald MF cameras that use larger versions of the CCD do you?  Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 13, 2009 Share #23 Â Posted October 13, 2009 These column defects often occure immediately and without any warning - it's very likely that they can fail from the time of the last comprehensive test (at Jenoptik after assembling the sensor to the board) till the shipping of the finished camera. If I'm not completely wrong it's a technical defect due to production tolerances just like dead pixels on LCDs - you just have to life with them to a certain degree. But as CCDs are reading their signal in columns, certain defects might be more noticeble than one single dead photodiode itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted October 13, 2009 Share #24 Â Posted October 13, 2009 Well - first light on my new M9 didn't go exactly as I had hoped.At ISO 800 I noticed a purple vertical line of pixels starting roughly 2/3 height and straight down (noticeable at 100% crop). More obvious at high ISO. Closer inspection shows there to be two. They appear on JPEG & RAW and are static. Looks like 2 column defects to me (encountered them before on astro ccds). Sending back to the shop tomorrow. Unfortunately the M9 isn't really something they can swap-out while you wait - back to the waiting game I guess. Â Very disappointing quality control here Kodak/Leica. Â Will post an update tomorrow with some images. Â Rgds Can you show us a picture? Many thanks Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share #25 Â Posted October 13, 2009 I was pretty wound-up last night - but the reality is that its sorted now. I actually care more about after-sales than point of sale - since practically speaking thats when it can cost valuable time (money) - and as Jonno points out - Richard Caplan did an amazing job of getting me up and running again - and they are a Leica representative. Â Given the complexity of the KAF-18500 - I would expect a lower pass rate than for a traditional microprism CCD. The M9 announcement actually caught me off-guard - I didn't think full frame in an RF was possible to a quality commensurate with something Leica would put their name to. Â What I did find strange was that the QC didn't pick it up. Now the issue could have developed after the QC check, in transit - or anytime. Two cases like this shouldn't set a precedent or deter you in any way. It isn't statistically significant (yet). Â Leica are in a bit of a lose-lose situation to be honest. If they take their time, people complain that there isn't any availability. If they rush - QC falls. I hope we are not witnessing the later since that will sustain the greater reputational damage. I think - with hindsight - it is too early to pass judgement. Â CCDs are nototiously difficult to manufacture - particularly complex low volume ones - lets hope this was a rogue one. Â If my tone has softened since yesterday - well once you see what this camera is capable of - everything else becomes less relevant. It is a gem. Â I hope I didn't deprive another customer of their camera - although I believe it was intended to be a demo unit. Â Rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 13, 2009 Share #26 Â Posted October 13, 2009 They told me that every third sensor passes QC for the M8 at Jenoptik, the most extreme case I heard of is the professional cine-style HD-camera Panavision Genesis, they accept only 1 in 600 sensors delivered by Sony (I also suspect that they can pay (renting costs 1500$/day for long-term tests with every single cameras before delivery)! Â Those defects can really happen from one day to another, I had it with my M8 after several thousand shots and nearly one year (when I knew where I needed to look, I found the very last image I shot without this defect...)! But I don't really know how the column defect "works" - is it just a dead pixel "banding" over the whole column or another part of the CCD? Why can't it be switched off in firmware like dead pixels (or does every "hot pixel" causes this "banding")? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share #27  Posted October 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) But I don't really know how the column defect "works" - is it just a dead pixel "banding" over the whole column or another part of the CCD? Why can't it be switched off in firmware like dead pixels (or does every "hot pixel" causes this "banding")?  Its several contiguous defective pixels along a single column.  Noise reduction will disguise it - so shoot DNG at high ISO with a good contrast range and low background detail to spot if present (and not dialed-out). Attached is what I saw with my first M9 at FF and then 200% crop.  Rgds Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100002-new-m9-with-column-defect/?do=findComment&comment=1073920'>More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted October 13, 2009 Share #28 Â Posted October 13, 2009 I suppose this picture was taken in DNG format and converted to JPG with Photoshop or C1 Â If you take another picture in "DNG + JPG Fine format" (I suppose it's possible with the M9), the line will be even more visible and/or visible at lower ISOs. Photoshop (CS or Lightroom) and C1 manage pretty well to mask the line and hot pixels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share #29  Posted October 13, 2009 Portrait (so defect rotated through 90 degrees) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100002-new-m9-with-column-defect/?do=findComment&comment=1073938'>More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted October 13, 2009 Share #30 Â Posted October 13, 2009 Its several contiguous defective pixels along a single column. Noise reduction will disguise it - so shoot DNG at high ISO with a good contrast range and low background detail to spot if present (and not dialed-out). Attached is what I saw with my first M9 at FF and then 200% crop. Rgds Thank you for showing us the default In my opinion, it comes from a defect of the sensor (quality of Kodak sensor implicated ?) Not visible on the first photo but only visible in the crop we must accept the default ? or risk does exist on all the sensors but not seen in normal non-enlarged image? It's very annoying ! Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share #31  Posted October 13, 2009 Thank you for showing us the default In my opinion, it comes from a defect of the sensor (quality of Kodak sensor implicated ?) Not visible on the first photo but only visible in the crop we must accept the default ? or risk does exist on all the sensors but not seen in normal non-enlarged image? It's very annoying ! Regards  It was very visible (to my eye at least) uncropped on a 30" display. These were simple spontaneous test shots after a long day - by no means scientific.  Bottom line - this is a rare defect and it should be pretty obvious - so don't worry - I just got a bad one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted October 13, 2009 Share #32  Posted October 13, 2009 It was very visible (to my eye at least) uncropped on a 30" display. These were simple spontaneous test shots after a long day - by no means scientific. Bottom line - this is a rare defect and it should be pretty obvious - so don't worry - I just got a bad one. In that case return to Solms and it is without ambiguity ! Regards Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted October 13, 2009 Share #33  Posted October 13, 2009 They told me that every third sensor passes QC for the M8 at Jenoptik, the most extreme case I heard of is the professional cine-style HD-camera Panavision Genesis, they accept only 1 in 600 sensors delivered by Sony (I also suspect that they can pay (renting costs 1500$/day for long-term tests with every single cameras before delivery)! Those defects can really happen from one day to another, I had it with my M8 after several thousand shots and nearly one year (when I knew where I needed to look, I found the very last image I shot without this defect...)! But I don't really know how the column defect "works" - is it just a dead pixel "banding" over the whole column or another part of the CCD? Why can't it be switched off in firmware like dead pixels (or does every "hot pixel" causes this "banding")?  Hi Georg Well, it can certainly come . . . and go. I suspect that you're right, that a single dead pixel will cause a band, and if you map out the pixel, then the band will go. Olympus has (had) automatic pixel mapping on the E1 to deal with the problem, assuming this is the same thing, it's a pity that the camera has to go back to Solms if it were possible to do it in the firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 13, 2009 Share #34  Posted October 13, 2009 Thank you for showing us the default In my opinion, it comes from a defect of the sensor (quality of Kodak sensor implicated ?) Not visible on the first photo but only visible in the crop we must accept the default ? or risk does exist on all the sensors but not seen in normal non-enlarged image? It's very annoying ! Regards  On both of my M8's it was visible in the image at normal screen viewing size, around 33%, and in print, 8x10.5, but was not that visible when converting the image to JPG and viewed on screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted October 13, 2009 Share #35 Â Posted October 13, 2009 Hi GeorgWell, it can certainly come . . . and go. I suspect that you're right, that a single dead pixel will cause a band, and if you map out the pixel, then the band will go. Olympus has (had) automatic pixel mapping on the E1 to deal with the problem, assuming this is the same thing, it's a pity that the camera has to go back to Solms if it were possible to do it in the firmware. Jono, The question is: should we accept such a defect and correct it with the firmware ? especially at this price ! Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 13, 2009 Share #36  Posted October 13, 2009 It was very visible (to my eye at least) uncropped on a 30" display. These were simple spontaneous test shots after a long day - by no means scientific. Bottom line - this is a rare defect and it should be pretty obvious - so don't worry - I just got a bad one.   I'm not as optimistic as you. This was and still is a problem with the M8. Now at camera release we have 3 reports of the line in the sensor on the M9, Jono on the beta camera, you on your bought production camera and another from over at the GetDPI forums on a new production camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted October 13, 2009 Share #37 Â Posted October 13, 2009 On both of my M8's it was visible in the image at normal screen viewing size, around 33%, and in print, 8x10.5, but was not that visible when converting the image to JPG and viewed on screen. Shootist, I also have 2 M8 and I will do these tests I do not see anything yet on my screen 22 inches (55 cms) but I will be testing as Googaliser Thank you for this information Regards Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted October 13, 2009 Share #38  Posted October 13, 2009 Jono,The question is: should we accept such a defect and correct it with the firmware ? especially at this price ! Regards  Hi There Well, I think all CCD sensors have some kind of pixel map to map out bad pixels. I think it's a fact of life, like it or not. I guess that the crucial point is whether the map 'repair' has a noticeable effect on the image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted October 13, 2009 Share #39 Â Posted October 13, 2009 That's right, as I said only a few scientific/professional purposes allow for no dead pixels at all. Most sensors (CMOS or CCD doesn't matter) have defective pixels right out of production, those pixels get mapped (their signal isn't read anymore but interpolated from a photodiode beneath). But when it is a single dead pixel and when a column? The column defect cannot be repaired/mapped, I got an entirely new sensor board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted October 13, 2009 Share #40 Â Posted October 13, 2009 That's right, as I said only a few scientific/professional purposes allow for no dead pixels at all. Most sensors (CMOS or CCD doesn't matter) have defective pixels right out of production, those pixels get mapped (their signal isn't read anymore but interpolated from a photodiode beneath).But when it is a single dead pixel and when a column? The column defect cannot be repaired/mapped, I got an entirely new sensor board. Â I was rather under the impression that the single dead pixel could show a column of band . . .but if you mapped it out the rest of the band would go. I'm not sure where I got that from, but I certainly did get the impression that was the case if the column had a dead pixel in it. Â Mind you, the images that Gooaliser are on a completely different scale from the very minor affair I saw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.