Guest Essemmlee Posted March 7, 2013 Share #1 Posted March 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Like most here I took my chances with the M8 and loved it to bits. I anticipated the M9 along with the rest of the members here and became excited by the build up to its arrival. When it did finally arrive the fanfare was supreme and I could hardly wait to get out there and grab one. Obviously I did buy an M9 and I still have it and love it and use it every day. I haven't felt the same about the M. There hasn't been much of a build up and it's felt like a bit of damp squib now it's here. There has been the odd bit of purchasing justification from the new owners but no great excitement as in the advent of the M9. It feels, to me and maybe only to me, like this version is a beta version for the next big thing, and that the next big thing will be big. Maybe similar to the M8 to M9 transition. With that in mind I am going to wait for the next big thing and in the interim I'm sure that my M9 (along with my OMD) will provide first class service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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macjonny1 Posted March 7, 2013 Share #2 Posted March 7, 2013 I think we are at the point of diminishing returns. The next big "upgrade" is photography skill! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 7, 2013 Share #3 Posted March 7, 2013 Everyone is different of course but I think the camera is excellent. I admit to not liking the chimping issue I've written about elsewhere and the presumption that if you use the EVF for focussing and framing, you'll want to use if for image review. Otherwise, I think the camera is a big step forwards for Leica, as someone else wrote, it has a much more finished feel about it. I'm very happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted March 7, 2013 Share #4 Posted March 7, 2013 it has a much more finished feel about it. I'm very happy. Mark, that's really an interesting comment, coming from you. How so? I know things like that are largely subjective, but knowing your intimate acquaintance with all of the M models, what strikes you about the M as having a "more finished feel?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
knisely Posted March 7, 2013 Share #5 Posted March 7, 2013 I think Macjonny1 has it correctly. Cameras have so many bells and whistles that many shooters have lost the purpose of the camera. P&S have such complicated menus and feature lists I would love to know the percentage of users that use various features. That's what I love about my Leicas, its about the photo. I don't have an M, but am on a list since day one. I am looking for an easier focusing feature. However, I definitely won't say I am a little disappointed until I have used the camera. Even reading about the M on this forum; there just aren't enough M's in the field to qualify the results. Add to that, no one has used it for more than a week further supports that the jury is still out. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 7, 2013 Share #6 Posted March 7, 2013 I've been sharing the sentiment with the OP ad nauseum, much to the distaste of others here and while there doesn't seem any point in adding to it, I will argue that we are not near the point of diminishing returns. And please don't get me wrong. I think the M is an astonishing camera but it could be even better in my opinion with a big hitting 40±MP sensor. Leica lenses deserve it and even demand it, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted March 7, 2013 Share #7 Posted March 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Everyone is different of course but I think the camera is excellent. I can't disagree with this view; I'm sure this is a great camera but the question I, and others, are asking, is it worth the money as I still can't tell it's images apart from those of the M9. Sadly it's release isn't generating any fuss or excitement and there is an overwhelmimg feeling of malaise as far as purchasing is concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted March 7, 2013 Share #8 Posted March 7, 2013 I haven't felt the same about the M. There hasn't been much of a build up and it's felt like a bit of damp squib now it's here. I decided to go for the MM, and was one of the first on the list of a major distributor. (Also good list position for the M). The MM today can be sold for close to its original retail price. I still have an M9. So I've evaluated the M as a potential upgrade to the M9 + MM, with easily some money back. So far, it looks like a downgrade to me for what I care about, particularly for B&W, but also for base ISO color. CMOS is a tricky migration. With a mere 1.3 stop ISO bump (Sean Reid), and first impressions by some reviewers of typical early generation CMOS issues (plasticky look, odd color rendition), I'm underwhelmed. I don't chimp, won't use the Leica for video, and invested in lenses for *rangefinder* use. Couldn't be happier with high ISO B&W on the MM. Don't want the extra weight. Prefer not to give up quieter first stage discreet mode for a noisier full cycle mode. Just not feeling it, for the M, at least not yet. Fortunately, my ticket hasn't come up at the distributor yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted March 7, 2013 Share #9 Posted March 7, 2013 The next jump is 36/50 MP & clean high ISO. This was a small step that really does little for me, but if you like live view, video, faster cycling, it is a big step. For Leica, it was a lot of engineering. I just want a camera that makes digital images instead of film. Nothing else needs to change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 7, 2013 Share #10 Posted March 7, 2013 Mark, that's really an interesting comment, coming from you. How so? I know things like that are largely subjective, but knowing your intimate acquaintance with all of the M models, what strikes you about the M as having a "more finished feel?" I think Leica has worked hard on this camera and it shows. It's the combination of little design details and major improvements which so appeals. Little details? How about... - The little rubber seal on the back of the hot shoe protector to seal the EVF port and the pin to hold it in place? - The welcome return of the round lug instead of the badly cut flat plate to retain the base plate? - The thumb rest and wheel? - The little magnet on the inside of the baseplate to tell the camera it's attached? No more lump pressing against a fragile microswitch. - The new massively improved tripod mount? - The new design of lens mount? - The grippy covering which is the best iteration to date? - The positive feedback from the dimple switches (though the focus one could be better)? - The sheer quality of the single piece casting from which the camera is made? Open the bottom cover and the finish is extraordinary unlike the castings on the M8 and M9 which (on the M8 at least) were a bit rough. Just details, but details count. Then you come on to the important bits. The shutter and shutter release are a revelation. Whisper quiet, no grit, no stickiness. If Leica offered an M8/M9 upgrade for their new shutter release, I would go for it in an instant. It's the best, you know exactly when it is going to release. I like having the two focussing mechanisms and as I have written elsewhere, they both work well. In fact, they sort of endorse each other and give you confidence, for example, that your rangefinder/lens combination is working. I think that will really help when out shooting. The menu system has grown up, easy to use, far removed from the MS-DOS aspirations of the M8 abnd M9. Great LCD display, easy to read font. New battery, double the capacity, was shooting and chimping all day while testing the lens focussing, no problems. Neat new battery charger. Compare that to the original M8 horror! I still have two for posterity... The ability to use other lenses. I've enjoyed trying a variety of Nikon and M42 lenses including a 50mm lens I bought for £1.23 and I will show you at some point how much of an improvement you get by using the APO 50mm Summicron ASPH at 4390 times the cost. I have to say it IS a bit better... And all of that is before we get to IQ. Others here probably have a more discerning eye than I do but I see nothing wrong in the images I am seeing. This camera is going to allow me to take technically better pictures, the photographer in me needs to catch up. Niggles. Of course, how could there not be? I would have liked Leica to have increased the height by 4mm to keep those horizontals on the back. 4mm, check it, it's not a lot. The buttons on the back could then have been made a bit larger if they did. What about their screen printed legends. How long are they going to last? My only major complaint is the one about lack of image review on the LCD when you use the EVF for focussing and framing. Other than that, it's a great camera and we can look forward to more from Leica in the future, I feel sure. I just hope my bank balance can take the inevitable strain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted March 7, 2013 Share #11 Posted March 7, 2013 The next jump is 36/50 MP & clean high ISO. it is disappointing that we will have to wait for the next iteration of the M for these features. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkcsm Posted March 7, 2013 Share #12 Posted March 7, 2013 I haven't felt the same about the M. There hasn't been much of a build up and it's felt like a bit of damp squib now it's here. One of the things I love about this forum is the international nature and exposure to new expressions like "damp squib"! It appears to me that there is quite a lot of excitement about the new M and I expect them to be difficult to acquire for some time. I'm fairly new to this, having purchased my M9 a bit more than a year ago, I wasn't really paying attention closely when the M9 arrived. But I think it's fair to say that "very first full frame digital rangefinder" might be worthy of more excitement as it was the first (and until the M240 the only) camera in it's class. Seems to me that nearly everything about the M is an improvement over the M9. Maybe not revolutionary but quite a worthy upgrade IMO. -K Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted March 7, 2013 Share #13 Posted March 7, 2013 I can't disagree with this view; I'm sure this is a great camera but the question I, and others, are asking, is it worth the money as I still can't tell it's images apart from those of the M9.d. Personally, I think the M is a much more significant evolution from the M9 than was the M8 to M9 move. The M enables the user to work in genres (macro,telephoto,precise composition) previously impractical to impossible for some while at the same time facilitating the use of optical stars from the R lineup as well as third party options making the M a much more versatile tool for a working photographer. Then there are the high iso gains that improved on the M9 that ,for many, rendered the camera functionally useless for certain low light/ high iso shooting situations. I will agree, though, that if one is not using the camera for critical or work applications then,perhaps, the gains, when viewing the files in a comparative fashion, are not significant enough to justify an upgrade. Mark Mark Tomalty Fine Art and Stock Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisPictor Posted March 7, 2013 Share #14 Posted March 7, 2013 Like most here I took my chances with the M8 and loved it to bits... Hey, believe it or not, I still do! No need even for an M9 on my side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted March 7, 2013 Share #15 Posted March 7, 2013 And all of that is before we get to IQ. Others here probably have a more discerning eye than I do but I see nothing wrong in the images I am seeing. Hence, damp squib. You produced a long list, looks like a clipping from a technical spec. When I've spun up live view, chimped focus or shot video on my Nikons (which is rare), I haven't often wished my Leicas could do that. Perhaps it's as simple as that. If there was a big increase in image quality, that would be another matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted March 7, 2013 Share #16 Posted March 7, 2013 Personally, I think the M is a much more significant evolution from the M9 than was the M8to M9 move. Compared to the move to full frame? Are you serious? Your comment is certainly outside the mainstream. Whether Leica, Canon or Nikon, the first full frame sensor on a proven technology was more significant than the first (oftem problematic) CMOS sensor. Initial implementations of Live View and video have more often than not been a curiousity, and it's taken a few generations to get it right. There's a first generation feel to the announced M feature set in these bolt-ons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 7, 2013 Share #17 Posted March 7, 2013 Nothing wrong with the M8... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted March 7, 2013 Share #18 Posted March 7, 2013 Compared to the move to full frame? Are you serious? For me, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted March 7, 2013 Share #19 Posted March 7, 2013 I am not enthusiastic about the M at all. I have my personal reasons though: I work as senior engineer within unified communications, and I have worked with IT and technical solutions all my life. It has also been my hobby since I was twelve years old. I deal with digital things (software and hardware) in my daily job. It´s what I do, and I really enjoy my work a whole lot. I´m lucky to be able to work with whatever technology I feel like and to work for a company that offers this type of flexibility. But... Digital and software is very much associated with work for me. One of the primary reasons for me to choose the MM was the basic nature of the camera. I wanted to get away from DSLR cameras not because of their size and weight only, but also to get away from the technology and all the software and gadget fuzz. The same happened with my Fujifilm X-Pro1. It was a much more basic camera than a DSLR but it still felt too "digital" for me to enjoy. The MM is so basic and that´s what I love about it. If film development wasn´t as costly and difficult to come by I would probably have purchased a MP instead. Film development is costly however, and the scanning process is more time consuming than the development of the MM´s raw files. I did the same thing with my guitar gear a few years back. I sold all the digital stuff (modelling amplifiers, effect boards with all the typical effects, etc) and purchased a basic and pure tube amplifier. After that change I enjoyed playing my electric guitar a whole lot more than with the digital amplifiers, modellers and effects. It made me focus on the music itself rather all the functions, gizmos, gadgets, settings, modelling presets, effects, delays, flangers... You name it. And I have the same feeling toward my camera gear. I want it as basic and less time consuming as possible. And I want to focus on the images and images alone. The less options, gadgets, settings, effects, etc. the more I focus on the core part of photography: the photographs. So I really hope that Leica continues the MM/M-E lines in the future, with updated revisions as well. I actually DO NOT want the Live View and Focus Peaking and all those electronic options. Yes I know I don´t have to use them. But I still focus better if the options aren´t there at all. So... If the future cameras from Leica will have more and more electronic wizardry I will loose interest in the new cameras. The M is not an option for me. I´d rather purchase a M-E/second hand M9 or M9-P to compliment my MM rather than a new M. The second that people start talking about specs and technical details and start analysing pixels I totally loose interest in the conversation, no matter if it revolves around a new camera model from Leica or not. It´s all empty talk. Forget about the specs and focus on the images. Forget about owning all the lenses if you can´t frame for shit - sell them all and keep one and learn to master it before trying a second focal length. Gearheads are discouraging. And I am afraid that the new breed of Leica cameras will attract the high-end Canon/Nikon gearheads which live and thrive on specs and specs alone, and who really doesn´t know anything about photography at all. /rant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 7, 2013 Share #20 Posted March 7, 2013 I think you will find that there won't be an enormous flurry of posts about the M....... Most posts are moans and complaints ....... And in my limiting fiddling with this camera I can't find much to criticise and the image output is ...... Errr....... Just like a Leica...... Same with the apo 50 'damp squib'........ It's unexciting because its almost faultless from a technical point of view. It's a camera that does everything pretty much as expected so there is no excuse not to go out and take photos instead of blabbing about it Whilst noiseless images at 128000iso, 100 megapixels, 30 frames per second continuous shooting in a camera the size of a cigarette packet will no doubt come ........ Even this will never satisfy everyone ......... and they certainly won't make you a better photographer...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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