Ivan Muller Posted February 28, 2012 Share #1  Posted February 28, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) at Leica M9 / M9-P Camera - Review  I have always thought that these reviews are balanced and fair...but.... what do you guys say...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1JB Posted February 28, 2012 Share #2 Â Posted February 28, 2012 Seems like a fair review. I don't know where he found a 50 lux that weighs over a pound. He had trouble getting used to which way the focus ring and speed dial move so he's definitely not been a manual focus or exposure photographer with any kind of camera. He also shot in jpg for his comparisons which really guts perhaps the best feature of the camera (not including the lenses), the dng files and the pp they will take. Still seemed like a fair review to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted February 28, 2012 Share #3 Â Posted February 28, 2012 That's a very long review for a 2+ year old camera maybe it's been 2 years in the making... and maybe he is weighing the silver chrome Summilux? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 28, 2012 Share #4 Â Posted February 28, 2012 The image quality reviews and comparisons are made from jpgs, not RAW, making the test pointless IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted February 28, 2012 Share #5 Â Posted February 28, 2012 The image quality reviews and comparisons are made from jpgs, not RAW, making the test pointless IMO. Â I agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted February 28, 2012 Share #6  Posted February 28, 2012 They also use jpegs from Raw via ACR...  Anyway I guess what counts, instead of pixel peeping and recognizing the M9 limitation with focus and moiré, is their final (much longer than this) comment...  "You might think from reading some of the above that we didn't like the Leica M9 all that much, what with all the complaining about focusing and exposure, aliasing artifacts, etc. That wouldn't be accurate, though. What became clear as we shot with the camera was the one thing that leaves Leica fans frothing at the mouth and reaching for $11,000 or so it costs to own a setup like we were using: The pictures."  "...sometimes the whole is indeed more than the sum of the parts, and we found that particularly to be the case with the Leica M9. Looking at its images, we were struck time and again with the almost three-dimensional character they possessed: There's something about how it renders images that is different from most any other camera we've tested."  "This is the real heart of the M9: Leica set out to reproduce not just the shooting experience of their famous rangefinders, but the total picture-taking experience as well, extending even to the look of the final images."  "The Leica M9's pictures have a luscious, vibrant, three-dimensional quality that we've really not seen from any other camera."  Quite a compliment from people who tested hundred of digital cameras... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns_ng Posted February 29, 2012 Share #7 Â Posted February 29, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) You can download the RAW files from the website. I downloaded both the M9 and NEX 7 RAW files, processed them with C1 Pro to tiff. It looks like the NEX 7 is showing a bit more details at 100%. Of course this is pixel peeping. I might just try the NEX 7 with my M and R lenses. Â N. S. Ng Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share #8 Â Posted February 29, 2012 I don't have an M but looking at the test results I would say that the M9 sensor is being edged out by the more modern sensors...which is great because it means most of us can get affordable M quality images from the other manufacturers even in aps-c size. Of course the Leica lenses have 'it' but even the Leica lens test shows softening wide open in the corners and, like all other lenses, great at F8. Reminds me somehow of the performance of my standard lens....soft in the corners wide open and superb at f8.... Â But the great thing is how sensor technology just improves all the time ...and these improvements hopefully will be seen in the next M, and for that matter in all the new cameras that are going to be released soon...ahhh competition is great for the consumer....!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 29, 2012 Share #9 Â Posted February 29, 2012 I think that is faulty thinking, Ivan. The M cameras are about the concept of the camera and not about pure sensor results per se. Having said that, there is still no 135 class camera that can beat the results of an AA filterless CCD at lower ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted February 29, 2012 Share #10 Â Posted February 29, 2012 "Ultimately the Leica M9-P is a difficult camera to use, despite its simplicity." Â Â The M is the easiest camera to use......fast, straightforward, and to the point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 29, 2012 Share #11 Â Posted February 29, 2012 If the piece was re-designated as an 'Impression' as opposed to a 'Review' then it might be acceptable. I have read far too many reviews by people inexperienced in the equipment that they are reviewing and this is just another. A rangefinder is unique and different from both an SLR and other non-rangefinder cameras. To assess its capabilities, advantages and disadvantages (of which it does have many) then it really does need someone experienced in all three to provide an objective and understanding review I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share #12  Posted February 29, 2012 Jaap to a point I agree with you..in other words there is no necessity for a M10 with an 'improved' sensor...because its all about the camera....and not the sensor? If that's so, point taken and well speak again if and when the new M is released...  I have a Mamiya Zd with no AA filter at 22mp and double the size of 135mm but let me tell you it is difficult to see sharpness differences between that and my canon 5d with AA filter...and I have read enough reviews from working photographers to realize that between Leica, Canon, Nikon and Sony there is very little practical difference between the sensors...they are all very very good  The other problem is that more and more cameras are being released without the AA filter... think D800 and Fuji...so that 'exclusive' Leica' and med format sensor advantage is also disappearing fast....  Leica imo will have to release a camera with a new and bigger and better sensor...where else will new sales come from..? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share #13 Â Posted February 29, 2012 If the piece was re-designated as an 'Impression' as opposed to a 'Review' then it might be acceptable. I have read far too many reviews by people inexperienced in the equipment that they are reviewing and this is just another. A rangefinder is unique and different from both an SLR and other non-rangefinder cameras. To assess its capabilities, advantages and disadvantages (of which it does have many) then it really does need someone experienced in all three to provide an objective and understanding review I'm afraid. Â Paul no reviewer can have all the cameras he reviews for long periods of time to really know them in and out like a owner would...so all reviews are flawed....but to take a camera, and do the same test shot as with all the other cameras must and does have validity, and I will certainly make a buying decision based on these test results...I haven't read anything in their reviews to make me think otherwise.....I might not always like what they say about my 'baby' but that doesn't mean to say they are wrong... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 29, 2012 Share #14  Posted February 29, 2012 Paul no reviewer can have all the cameras he reviews for long periods of time to really know them in and out like a owner would...so all reviews are flawed....but to take a camera, and do the same test shot as with all the other cameras must and does have validity, and I will certainly make a buying decision based on these test results...I haven't read anything in their reviews to make me think otherwise.....I might not always like what they say about my 'baby' but that doesn't mean to say they are wrong... Ivan  The problem goes like this: I use both Canon EOS and Leica M systems. I much prefer to use the M system, but... sometimes it is not appropriate. Not because of image quality which is in the vast, vast majority of cases, perfectly acceptable from both systems for most uses that the images will be put to, but because both systems have very different strengths and weaknesses. In order to understand and appreciate this it is essential to have a good grasp of the equipment being used. I would not consider reviewing a camera that I know little about simply because I would not appreciate its abilities. So I AM critical when others try to do so and the result is a superficial review based on relatively-simple-to-undertake image comparison which in all honesty tells only a small part of the story.  As an example I have the M9 and 35/1.4 asph. I also have te 5D2 with the 35/1.4L. In absolute optical terms I would consider the M lens to the clear winner based on actual imagery, especially wide pen which is how I actually often do use both lenses, but frequently I will use the Canon because I need the advantages it offers on the 5D2 body. Trying to compare the two from comparative images is only valid if they represent the sort of photography that the reviewer wants to compare. The M rangefinder is difficult to pick up and review simply because it needs experience to work with - which was quite obvious from some comments in the review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 29, 2012 Share #15  Posted February 29, 2012 Jaap to a point I agree with you..in other words there is no necessity for a M10 with an 'improved' sensor...because its all about the camera....and not the sensor? If that's so, point taken and well speak again if and when the new M is released... I have a Mamiya Zd with no AA filter at 22mp and double the size of 135mm but let me tell you it is difficult to see sharpness differences between that and my canon 5d with AA filter...and I have read enough reviews from working photographers to realize that between Leica, Canon, Nikon and Sony there is very little practical difference between the sensors...they are all very very good  The other problem is that more and more cameras are being released without the AA filter... think D800 and Fuji...so that 'exclusive' Leica' and med format sensor advantage is also disappearing fast....  Leica imo will have to release a camera with a new and bigger and better sensor...where else will new sales come from..? Well, that camera is the S2.. The M10 will likely have some kind of CMos sensor, so that will be a paradigm shift, the consequences of which we cannot judge now. Wait and see is the word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.gt Posted February 29, 2012 Share #16  Posted February 29, 2012 at Leica M9 / M9-P Camera - Review I have always thought that these reviews are balanced and fair...but.... what do you guys say...?  Another meaningless review IMO. As a guide, maybe. But there is nothing in the review that would make me want to buy anything. Tried the NEX 7 and even a Nikon D7000 last week back to back and hated both.  The M9 with lux lenses is the rig that works for me and the images are what I prefer. There is nothing in the digital offerings that come close. Until I can afford one, I will continue on with my M3...which would be interesting in their review but I still prefer it over any other camera they tested except the M3. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share #17 Â Posted February 29, 2012 Paul, of course what you say makes absolute sense..... Â But, one has to rely on reviews to help in the buying decision, at least I have to and did... Â for example, I happened to see a used X1 and was made an offer by the shop owner, an offer that I thought was superb, ..but I had to make a quick decision... Â I read DP review, Steve Huff, Erwin Putts etc all that I could find...all said more or less the same, superb image quality, good user interface and slow AF. So then I had a look at the camera...there is no way that I can take it home spend six months with it and then decide...I have about half an hour to look and make up my mind. So first thing is test the AF and see how bad it is...to me it was acceptable and based on the reviews and looking at a few images overnight, made up my mind...Sure since then I have really got to know the camera and I use it totally differently to what I initially thought I would...but what was said in the reviews still stand.... Â Now I have read zillions of opinions here about how good the M9 is etc etc... based on my own experience with a M2 and two lenses for 18months in the day of film, of course I sort of build up this idea that ultimately that's what I wanted..so I had a look see and was terribly disappointed, big and heavy, difficult to hold, even more difficult to frame and focus, very loud shutter and an insane price, for me at least (I obviously don't 'get' the Leica thing )... so a no go. Based on all the reviews I knew the sensor was good enough even superb... didn't expect the handling to be such a disappointment...a real dealbreaker - for me. Â How else do you buy a camera, who is going to lend me a M9 for say 6months and let me play around for goodness knows how long and then let me return it because now that I have learned all the intricacies, I don't like it......? Â Reviewers are more impartial, and pardon me for saying so,but most of the owners here are not, and frankly I will take most of what they say about the M with a pinch of salt...so how else do we make up our minds and get informed about what a camera's about...asking the fan club imo is not the way to go...you have to hear a dissenting voice, an impartial voice......have a look at he physical camera, take a few test images and then make up your own mind.....any good photographer will read a review and based on his own knowledge and experience filter was is said and make up his own mind..... Â Thats how I bought my 5d2, read a hell of a lot of reviews and when there was a huge opening sale just walked in an bought it..2 years later I am just as impressed with it as the day I bought it and it keeps on impressing me with the no nonsense easy and foolproof way it works...When I picked it up the first time...plus everything I had read in the reviews...the decision was easy.... Â So yes I do trust many reviewers, do I believe everything they say, of course not...but surely looking at a bunch of sensor tests is not invalid just because in the second paragraph he wrote something one didn't agree with....doesn't make everything else they tested invalid.... Â BTW Paul, superb website and images.....based on your images I could see myself listening and valuing your opinion about cameras and what works for you ....but you must have noticed that many of the most vocal critics here of anything non-Leica often don't even have any good photography to back up their claims...you know I, ( and I am sure you do to ), have to look at someones images first to get an idea how to evaluate what they say when they talk photography and cameras.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 29, 2012 Share #18 Â Posted February 29, 2012 I know where you are coming from regarding size and sound, still remembering the first time I picked up an M8 in 2006. But honestly, after a week that had shrunk into irrelevancy and nowadays a film M feels a bit toy-like to me, let alone a Barnack. And my M6 still is loud compared to my Digilux2 brick. Shows how relative things are;) But the image quality is really beyond doubt - there are enough high-end Nikon and Canon users here to testify to that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share #19 Â Posted February 29, 2012 Well, that camera is the S2.. The M10 will likely have some kind of CMos sensor, so that will be a paradigm shift, the consequences of which we cannot judge now. Wait and see is the word. Â But Jaap surely not a paradigm shift in the basic way the camera works.....same old system but newer and dare I say it, better sensor....?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 29, 2012 Share #20 Â Posted February 29, 2012 Better? - I am not such a CMos fan based on what I see presently. No - I am hoping for the added functionality within the M concept- suitable for functions like an auxilary EVF (not everybody will want that, but then not everybody wanted a Visoflex...) lower power consumption, maybe Maestro technology giving a quantum leap in processing power, etc... And trusting Leica to find a CMos that renders as well as or better than the current CCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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