pigeonnier Posted January 30, 2009 Share #1 Posted January 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, I have the following problem. Since I updated the firmware of my Leica M8 to version 2.02 the noise, when using ISO 640 and higher, has considerably increased. Before noise was, in bad light circumstances, bearly visible. After the update the noise has become clearly visible. Am I the only one who is experiencing this problem? Any ideas about a solution? Regards, Erik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Hi pigeonnier, Take a look here Increased noise since firmware update. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 30, 2009 Share #2 Posted January 30, 2009 Yes- you are the only one. Most posters claimed it had diminished. Which is equally unlikely. I think that you may have switched on auto-ISO, and that that is influencing your exposure. Switch it off and go back to your former way of exposing. You'll see that the noise will be the same as before. Then, with Auto-ISO on, you will know how to compensate. And welcome to the forum (Although you seem to have lurked for a while ) Edit: I had a look at your website. Impressive. We need pros like you over here.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonnier Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted January 30, 2009 Hi Jaap, Thank you for your response.Sorry but I'am a professional (Leica) Photographer and a long time M user. I know how the camera operates and believe me I did not switch on, either by intent or by mistake, the auto ISO option! And whether or not by coincidence since the update the noise has actually increased! And since the noise is mainly controlled by the firmware of the camera it is not completly unlogical to assume a firmware update has some thing to do with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 30, 2009 Share #4 Posted January 30, 2009 Oh no, Erik, it is not unlogical. But you are really the first to post this, all other posts have been the opposite, so it is rather surprising. I can think of no other explanation than the one I posted before. Hopefully somebody else will come up with the answer for you. But the noise levels of the M8 at high ISO are, as you know, very exposure dependent, so it must be something in that direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 30, 2009 Share #5 Posted January 30, 2009 Erik-- Have you tried reloading the firmware? I think it may be coincidence that noise increased at the same time that you updated the firmware. Perhaps (hopefully not) some part of the circuit is going out? Did you perhaps change batteries at the same time you updated? Maybe the new battery is running warm? As Jaap said, yours is the first remark I've seen that noise levels had increased with the later firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 30, 2009 Share #6 Posted January 30, 2009 Hi Erik Suddenly I'm not alone in having this impression. See this posts last thread from a few days back: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/76153-ice-cream-delight.html What I have noticed is that it is intermittent and here are a couple of shots taken one after the other on manual at 1250 and 45th second at f2. The first shows distinct vertical banding and noise whereas the second is quieter with no real visible banding. I shoot 1250 often and have only recently experienced this - since the firmware upgrade I think. I feel I can't shoot at 1250 with the confidence in results I used to.......Could be coincidence and some other fault I guess, but none the less I'd like to know whats going on. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/75660-increased-noise-since-firmware-update/?do=findComment&comment=795468'>More sharing options...
russell Posted January 30, 2009 Share #7 Posted January 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dont let the senior members of this forum set you to doubting. I've too had problems with banding. Looks alot like yours except mine are actually more like a griding than banding with line running in equal spaces in both vertical and horizontal directions. Having said that, I dont think it's anything to do with the new firmware. I've seen this since the beginning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 30, 2009 Share #8 Posted January 30, 2009 Having said that, I dont think it's anything to do with the new firmware. I've seen this since the beginning. Iv'e not and have used the M8 at 1250 often and in the same lighting conditions as the illustrated shots for over 18 months. Don't get me wrong, you would have to prize my m8 from my cold dead hands - but I do want it working properly. Regards Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 30, 2009 Share #9 Posted January 30, 2009 I can't understand why He shouldn't consider the senior member's opinion, and trust in yours since it's then same. :confused: Maybe I just didn't read well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted January 30, 2009 Share #10 Posted January 30, 2009 Could it be the RAW converter? I noticed with my auto-ISO bands shots, that Capture one did a much better job than Lightroom 2.2. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 30, 2009 Share #11 Posted January 30, 2009 It's visible in the jpeg on the camera monitor not simply after RAW conversion Robert. Regards Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbelyaev Posted January 30, 2009 Share #12 Posted January 30, 2009 I have noticed the same problem. Prior to firmware update I have no problems taking pictures @640. There was some noise, but it was ok. The distribution of the nois was even. I'm not sure why the new firmware boosts noise in dark areas of the images, leaving well lit areas relatively noise free. Here are some samples (pls, see the full size images) Old firmware: Flickr Photo Download: M8noiseoldchurch Flickr Photo Download: M8oldnoiseboat New firmware: (2.002) Flickr Photo Download: M8noisenewhome Flickr Photo Download: M8noisenewheart As we see on the last image, the brightly lit areas look fine (even dark elements of these ares), noise becomes very visible on the areas which are less illuminated (corners), even-though the primary color (color of the wall) remain the same in well and poorly illuminated areas. Leica, It would be nice to address this issue in a new firmware update. Sometimes it is very frustrating to take available light photographs knowing that shadows may become noisy and blotchy. Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 31, 2009 Share #13 Posted January 31, 2009 Leica, It would be nice to address this issue in a new firmware update. Sometimes it is very frustrating to take available light photographs knowing that shadows may become noisy and blotchy. Thank you! Any more members notice this before I contact Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 31, 2009 Share #14 Posted January 31, 2009 Graeme, I haven't noticed a change. A couple of weeks ago I accidentally took some shots at 1250 - sample enclosed, full frame and 100% crop. This is straight out of the camera, with no adjustments during RAW conversion, and just a conversion to SRGB Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/75660-increased-noise-since-firmware-update/?do=findComment&comment=795858'>More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 31, 2009 Share #15 Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks Steve. It seems ok in bright light and curiously intermittent in lower light on my M8. Would reloading the software be an option do you think? Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 31, 2009 Share #16 Posted January 31, 2009 Hi Erik What I have noticed is that it is intermittent and here are a couple of shots taken one after the other on manual at 1250 and 45th second at f2. The first shows distinct vertical banding and noise whereas the second is quieter with no real visible banding. I shoot 1250 often and have only recently experienced this - since the firmware upgrade I think. I feel I can't shoot at 1250 with the confidence in results I used to.......Could be coincidence and some other fault I guess, but none the less I'd like to know whats going on. I have opened these shots in photoshop and although you exposed them identically the histograms are different. Now I'm no photoshop expert, there are some here who are, and others can look at the data with other analytical tools, but the more heavily banded shot is certainly more to the left of the histogram and is clipping in the shadows the less banded shot shows less clipping. There appears to be room to give more exposure to the right without clipping there. I have long wanted a full screen histogram display on the M8 as this would assist in these marginal exposure situations. I have no explanation as to why the same exposure gives different histograms but they are different and you should investigate this first IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 31, 2009 Share #17 Posted January 31, 2009 Graeme, I haven't noticed a change. A couple of weeks ago I accidentally took some shots at 1250 - sample enclosed, full frame and 100% crop. This is straight out of the camera, with no adjustments during RAW conversion, and just a conversion to SRGB No clipping in the shadows on the histogram Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted January 31, 2009 Share #18 Posted January 31, 2009 I have no explanation as to why the same exposure gives different histograms but they are different and you should investigate this first IMHO. Thanks Chris. I'm no histogram expert and wouldn't know what to investigate here but surely the extent of banding/noise should not be as extreme from one manual exposure to the next in identical lighting conditions? Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 31, 2009 Share #19 Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks Chris. I'm no histogram expert and wouldn't know what to investigate here but surely the extent of banding/noise should not be as extreme from one manual exposure to the next in identical lighting conditions? Graeme I assume that the banding is because you have exposed so that the shadow has gone into clipping ie underexposed maybe only by a third of a stop. The less banded shot is less clipped so less banded. I agree that two shots manual should be "identical" in this respect but they are not. I'm unsure of the shutter accuracy/precision but it does vary in any shutter and it may be yours is poor at low speeds. The effect is digital, it's the on/off syndrome, it clips or it doesn't. It appears to me that the shots, from the histogram, are not identical and thus one clips more than the other. To avoid banding/clipping you need to be more generous in letting what light there is fall onto the sensor. Even, as I say a third of a stop can be very significant. Why not run a quick test on consecutive exposures and look at the histograms see if they vary ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted January 31, 2009 Share #20 Posted January 31, 2009 Having looked again at the shots there is significantly more white in the second shot, of the chair. The shots are not identical in subject. Now doesn't the M8 use that blue sensor to guess the f stop / and doesn't that guess become incorporated into the data for the shot ? So does the software think you used a slightly different f-stop ? (it uses fractions of f stops) and this has affected the processing and given the different histograms? One of the sophisticated exif data readers can tell you what f-stop the M8 has guessed I am willing to put a small wager on it being different for those two shots. I think the corner fix program can do that but will need the RAW file. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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