21mm Super Ang

[butchhul]

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Greetings,

 

Has anyone tried either the old f4 or f3.4 21s on the M8? If so any results to share?

 

have fun

Butch

[wparsonsgisnet]

These are usable on the M8 but the camera cannot meter when these lenses are being used.

 

See p. 86 of the M8 Instruction Manual.

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[heninden]

I have used the 21/3.4 SA on the M8. "Metering" can be done manually by trial and error. Set aperture and shutter speed. Shoot. Check display and histogram to see if proper, useable exposure has been achieved. It actually works as well as the 21/2.8 Elmarit ASPH I have when set on "A". When using this combo, I often have to make adjustments to the exposure because of the amount of sky in the frame.

[Woody Campbell]

I have the f4. Puts and others have reviewed it accurately. Pros: tiny form factor - a "pancake" design. Cons: vignetting and not a lot of acutance, whether center or corners and whatever f stop. Kind of a dreamy image.

 

The f3.4 is thought to be a better performer, but is largers.

[luigi bertolotti]

I have both, but not yet tested on M8... if, as probable, I'll wait again and again for my 21 ASPH to come back coded, I'll try soon...am expecially curious to test the delicious f4.. on film, vignetting is strong, but the crop factor of M8 can be useful... I surely post some picture next days.

[MP3]

I've used both on M8. All you need is to mount them very carefully into the chamber. You know these true wide angle non-retro design have their rear elements protrude a lot out at the end of the lens.

 

M8 shutter can fire safely at all focusing distance. Not a problem. Due to the protruding rear elements blocking overshading M8's internal light meter, it will regularly over-expose 2.667 to 3 whole stops if you work on A mode. So, it is a good lens to train our own sensitivity to light. Best is to do exposure in a manual sense, though click down a -3 in EV is also possible in some conditions with great results.

 

Many consideration for these lens due to the followings:

metering - a great challenge

size - more compact then 21 Elmarit(s)

filter - E48 or Series 7

image color rendition - beautiful and stunning for v3.4, more neutral for v4.0

low distortion - non-retro true wide angle design made these gems lower distortion than any Elmarit(s)

best performance - at f8 to f11 though f3.4 and f4 is perfectly usable

tone rendition- wonderful grey tones, I prefer the v3.4 grey tone layers to any later 21s.

sharpness - these lens offer great sharpness with mellow contrast, also my preference

 

There are still some points regarding their earlier and later designs I can supplement if you really feel interested. All in all they are great performers only that we need to train ourselves on metering. I have read many comments on the internet that these gems are not comparable to modern 21s from Leitz, cv and zeiss. I actually have a wonderful time using all these different 21s. From my experience, it is partly or greatly due to the fact that these gems are 30 - 40 years old. Current conditions and quality variance at that time can be very different. My final gut feeling is, if I have not had an 21 asph, I will go for a mint condition SA3.4. Many reasons behind including some quoted above.

 

I like 28mm, that is the reason why I have made some intensive studies on 21mm lens when I use my M8. Hope some of my observations can benefit you =)

 

See the grey tones and mellow contrast of this indoor picture, SA21, f3.4, M8 jpeg, no PP.

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[lars_bergquist]

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Matthew, this is interesting. The 21mm/3.4 was seen as one of the very best Leica lenses in its day. But the successor Elmarit may well be even better. Mine is in Solms for coding right now.

 

The best way to determine exposure is by a hand meter, preferably used in the incident light mode. Learn to use a good one and you are Master of All Light. It belonged in my kit with the M6 and it belongs with my M8.

 

• No-brainer: Set camera to A.

• Tricky lighting: Manual exposure with built-in meter.

• Hairy lighting: Haul out your trusty Gossen Sixtomat Digital.

• Impossible lighting: Bracket! Bracket like the very devil!

 

The old man from the Age of Selenium Meters

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Mathew:

Thanks for your contribution. I agree with every word you wrote. I also own both the Super Angulons, the 21 asph Elmarit, the WATE and a Biogon 21 converted to Leica screw mount. I have not tried the latter on the M8 for fear of damaging the shutter.

My favourite for B&W is the 3.4. Like you I love the grey scale. For colour I use the 3.4 for subjects that call for pastel shades. The 21 asph. results in what I see as more "snappy" images.

Sorry, I can't manage to post pictures. I am a complete computer dud.

Teddy

[MP3]

Lars, I do hope that one day my eyes can act like a gossen 6.

 

Theodor, though I already got 21 asph, my heart keep thinking of SA3.4 and my hands are now on 2 Carl Zeiss Contarex Biogon 4.5 adapted to Leica M. They can be safely mounted and shutter fired at all focusing distance with no problem. These Biogons give very fine drawing and pleasing saturated colors and color tone gradations. Distortion is non-existent.

 

In fact, I have been trying out 6 SA3.4 during this month, some are not in the right conditions while others are priced too high. Hope goddess of luck will visit me soon...

 

I'm very enthusiastic in looking for good 21s because I like 28 so much. An interesting thing I observe from the pictures from these 21s is - SA3.4 and Biogon can perform somehow like an 28. Elmarit(s) including the asph version on M8 in fact looks like an 24.

 

Cheers

Matthew

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Mathew,

Very grateful for your comment on the Biogon! I am going to try it out right now. I recall the results I had with Film M's and my trusty old IIIg, using mostly Kodachrome 25 on Japanese Zen gardens and now look forward to the results on the M8.

Does your Biogon have that rectangular turnable shade on the last element too? I suppose one should position it so the larger side is horizontal to match the sensor.

I was in Kyoto for 4 days recently and revisited my favourite Zen gardens, mostly using the WATE (no IR filter) and was very pleased with the results. Nevertheless, the near zero distortion of the Biogon and its colour rendition remain in my memory.

Bye the way, the 72mm Biogon for the Linhof 4X5" Technikas is very similar in its colour behaviour. I feel that the 38mm Biogon on the Hasselblad SWC is very good as well. But for practical purposes, my M8 and the Biogon is IT.

Teddy

 

P.S. Sorry, I forgot to wish you the best of luck in your quest for a reasonably priced SA 3.4 in good condition. I bought mine in the early 60's, a chrome one, new, in Hongkong.

[MP3]

Hi Theodor

 

What a great experience visiting Kyoto Zen garden! Yes, for the Biogon 21, you would need to position the rear lens shade in horizontal position before mounting into M8's chamber.

 

Chrome SA is a highly sought after item, you are a lucky man.

 

Cheers

Matthew

[MP3]

Theodor

 

I got a question regarding the SA3.4 which you may know the answer.

 

When I tried out several SA3.4 last week, I found that in the mid of its various attractions, there are 2 interesting points in its image character,

 

1) Got to be very careful on highlights as they tend to flood or blow.

2) the SA 3.4 appears to be a half stop slower. When wide open, it is just a f4 lens. I compare it side by side with my 21 asph set at f3.4. The SA wide open with same shutter speed is consistently under exposed by half stop.

 

Do you have simiar experience when using SA3.4?

 

Cheers

Matthew

[luigi bertolotti]

I used SA 3,4 for years on my M4 and really sometimes I also thought it was a little closer than the appearing stop... not so significant, but have prints of shots taken with 21/35 one moment after another and the 21 is a little bit darker also in center...,5 stop i'd say... but is a great lens anyway; little experience with highlights... but remember some interiors pics with big light contrast...no problem, seems to me: I used always the hood...maybe it's important in this respect...

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Mathew,

As to point # 1, yes. I have noticed the same phenomenon as you. Somewhere I read that the actual light transmission depends on the number of elements of a lense and the transmission characteristics. I must say that it did not overly bother me, since I knew the characteristics.

To point# 2: I tend to mostly underexpose a little on purpose because I learned with slide film where I always exposed for the highlights. I did not notice this characteristic you mention.

Teddy

[MP3]

All in all, the SA is a very good lens with its characters. Enjoy!

[luigi bertolotti]

This past Sunday I went out with M8 and the old Super Angulon f4: don't post anything for I did not have the chance of a good picture : cloudy weather, a little trek with family, some good pic with other lenses, but not a real occasion to make use of a WA...: I made 3 or 4 shots with the SA just to see how it worked: the first (expected) good surprise is that vignetting is really a little thing : with film-full frame is much more annoying; focuses right, sharpness so-so (surely worst than with my old beloved Cron 35 1st type). My first impression is the lens is anyway USABLE and still has a certain character... hope I'll teke some really significant shot to post... it's so nice a lens...

[MP3]

Hi Luigi

 

Yes, good vintage Leitz lens are always great to grip on, a photo taking jewel. They bring us surprises after surprises when taking pictures.Hope you enjoy and post up some favorite pics.

 

Cheers

Matthew

[Symeon]

The Super Angulon f3.4 was introduced in 1963 (designed by Jos Schneider) to replace the f4 version of 1958 which was notorious for its vignetting. There are 8 elements in an Angulon f3.4 and 9 in an f4. It is also rumoured that there are "rare earth" glasses in the Angulon f3.4 elements which obviously makes the lens better and less susceptible to flare etc. So much for history. Now, yes I have used the SA 3.4 on the Leica M8 and it works. Obviously you cannot meter, but you couldn't meter with it on any other previous analog M model. But who used in camera meters in the early 60s? Anyway, the optic is a jewel, every old timer knows this, and if used properly it matches Biogons in contrast and resolution. Yes, its contrast is soft but it has a very good tonal range and if kept upright it has very small barrel distortion - considering the angle of view. The one I use is silver chrome @1964 (very few blacks were made) and I won't sell it for the world.

Keep shooting,

regards,

Simon:)

[carstenw]

Hello Simon, and congratulations with the first post!

 

Do you have any photos taken with the 21/3.4 to share?

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Hallo,

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[lars_bergquist]

Lars, I do hope that one day my eyes can act like a gossen 6.

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Cheers

Matthew

 

Matthew, that will never happen. We are very good at judging relative brightness (i.e. simultaneous differences) but lousy at judging absolute brightness levels. This is bad for us as photographers (which means that we need electronic meters to give us the numbers) but lucky for us as living, evolving animals out there on the savannah.

 

The old man from the Age of Selenium Meters