FMB Posted December 16, 2015 Share #1 Posted December 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I need some help to find out if I've an issue in my SL camera. It is the worse among the Leica M9P and Leica M when I try to enlarge the taken photos in DNG format (not when I use DNG + JPG). I can't understand this horrible difference and why if I select the DNG + JPG option the resolution is very close to the M9P and M cameras? Have any of you the same problema? I always work only with DNG and it seems to me a step back to be obliged, if I need check for instance if the picture is well focussed, to use both formats. Please... Francisco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Hi FMB, Take a look here Quality of enlarged photos in DNG format. . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Nikus Posted December 16, 2015 Share #2 Posted December 16, 2015 The embedded JPEG is a thumbnail. In my opinion it's a bug. Leica may call it a feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 16, 2015 Share #3 Posted December 16, 2015 I assume you mean enlarging in camera? If so, then the SL only enlarges the embedded jpg, not the dng itself. If you shoot only dng, then the only embedded jpg is a thumbnail which, as you see, does not enlarge. If you shoot dng+jpg, then it enlarges the large jpg. Bug or feature, it has no logic, is wrong and ought to be changed. It works fine in the M240 so I don't see a technical reason why it can't happen. For the moment I am shooting dng+jpg, but only importing the dng to Lightroom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted December 16, 2015 Share #4 Posted December 16, 2015 The embedded JPEG is a thumbnail. In my opinion it's a bug. Leica may call it a feature. Uninteded: bug. Intended: feature. It’s a feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 16, 2015 Share #5 Posted December 16, 2015 The embedded JPEG is a thumbnail. In my opinion it's a bug. Leica may call it a feature. I am hoping eventually that they just simply like other manufacturers add an additional choice on DNG ONLY also on the T-701. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted December 16, 2015 Thank you for your opinions. But............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 16, 2015 Share #7 Posted December 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Uninteded: bug. Intended: feature. It’s a feature. I suspect you're right. It may be a feature, but it's not an excuse! Which is better: an intentional cock-up or an accidental one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted December 16, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 16, 2015 Basically other manufactures save the large jpeg as a default and use it for image review and yet you canniot download this image with the RAW file. In this camera Leica gives you the choice of whether you want to save the jpeg or not and if you do save it you have a choice of whether you want to download the jpeg or not. Said another way with most manufacturers they save the jpeg without giving you a choice and they do not allow you the option of downloading this jpeg. Leica's implementation, IMO, is clearly better--its gives you the choice of downloading the jpeg and it gives you the choice of saving the jpeg. Now I am not sure what the M240 does, but I would not be surprised if it did what other manufacturers do. If so, then I think it is clearly an advance to give users the choice in the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikus Posted December 16, 2015 Share #9 Posted December 16, 2015 An advance maybe to give the user the choice to save a large embedded JPEG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted December 16, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 16, 2015 Same with the Leica T and Q .... SL follows this pattern. The EVF and LCD review image is dependent on the resolution of the JPG chosen on the camera ...... Leica listened to those wanting a DNG only option for the SL ...... but the downside is you get the crappy embedded image which is useless for judging focus etc. The M series cameras use the DNG ...... which is why they are slow to display and even slower to zoom in. I suggest you choose DNG + the lowest resolution jpg that suits your needs and only download the DNG's from the card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted December 16, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 16, 2015 I think the point here is that they give you a very large zoom factor.......which, added to the very high definition screen means that a large jpg is required. They could embed it in the DNG (I guess) but decided not to. Perhaps it would have been better if we had been warned about this 'feature'. At any rate, I shoot DNG plus JPG, have LightRoom use the jpg as a sidecar file and then delete the JPGs every so often. Not much of a hardship really! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 16, 2015 Share #12 Posted December 16, 2015 After initial grumbling, I realized that my manual download process requires only one extra click to separate out and subsequently ignore all the full-size jpegs. The M240 embeds a medium sized jpeg in the dng file, and as a result does not permit a full 100% enlargement on the LCD for checking focus. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted December 16, 2015 I think the point here is that they give you a very large zoom factor.......which, added to the very high definition screen means that a large jpg is required. They could embed it in the DNG (I guess) but decided not to. Perhaps it would have been better if we had been warned about this 'feature'. At any rate, I shoot DNG plus JPG, have LightRoom use the jpg as a sidecar file and then delete the JPGs every so often. Not much of a hardship really! Jono, I suspected something similar to your explanation, as usual clear and documented. Summing up it's a pitty. For the moment we are obliged to change the name of the files whose numbering has being altered by any formatting done and, now on, deleting JPGs files. It should be necessary that Leica people was very diligent with the next versión of firmware at least for the "features"/bugs easy to solve or laborious for the customer, or, do we need to wait for a half a year? Thanks to all of you. Francisco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgktkr Posted December 17, 2015 Share #14 Posted December 17, 2015 I wonder a bit about the architects who designed the way SL handles image data. They design in a magnifier for live view (users might like that) and they don't seem to need to store a jpg on the SD card to do that. One might think they're using raw data somehow to generate a magnified image for the display. So why didn't they design in a capability to read raw data from the SD card to do the same thing? Surely they realized somebody (lots of users?) might want to do that without having to deal with jpgs on the SD card that just cause extra effort and get in the way. I miss the capability that my DMR has to review at high resolution a small area of a captured image to verify that the image is sharp where it should be sharp. All that from nothing but DNGs (which include low resolution jpgs). dgktkr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted December 17, 2015 Share #15 Posted December 17, 2015 I wonder a bit about the architects who designed the way SL handles image data. They design in a magnifier for live view (users might like that) and they don't seem to need to store a jpg on the SD card to do that. One might think they're using raw data somehow to generate a magnified image for the display. So why didn't they design in a capability to read raw data from the SD card to do the same thing? Surely they realized somebody (lots of users?) might want to do that without having to deal with jpgs on the SD card that just cause extra effort and get in the way. I miss the capability that my DMR has to review at high resolution a small area of a captured image to verify that the image is sharp where it should be sharp. All that from nothing but DNGs (which include low resolution jpgs). dgktkr Before the shot is taken they are reading right off the sensor. Nothing is saved as the data is live directly off the sensor. Display of the magnified part of the sensor actually takes less computing power than displaying the whole image as the live image has to be down sampled less in magnified view than in seeing the whole image. When you take the shot and store the file, however, a decision has to be made about how much data is stored. Storing more data of course takes up more space on the SD card, but it allows a better image in reviewing the shot. It seems many people would like the engineers to have made this decision for them and embedded the large jpeg in the DNG. Personally, I think it is better that I can choose what size jpeg I would like to save or even to not save one at all and whether I want to download it or not with the DNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted December 17, 2015 Share #16 Posted December 17, 2015 For the moment we are obliged to change the name of the files whose numbering has being altered by any formatting done and, now on, deleting JPGs files. Of course you don’t have to delete those JPEG files (as someone who always chooses Raw+JPEG with any camera, I do not), but at least you can. Suppose the JPEG was embedded in the DNG, how would you delete that? An embedded JPEG preview of a comparable quality would take up nearly the same space as the JPEG file, which is while camera vendors usually choose to embed a lower quality JPEG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 17, 2015 Share #17 Posted December 17, 2015 Of course you don’t have to delete those JPEG files (as someone who always chooses Raw+JPEG with any camera, I do not), but at least you can. Suppose the JPEG was embedded in the DNG, how would you delete that? An embedded JPEG preview of a comparable quality would take up nearly the same space as the JPEG file, which is while camera vendors usually choose to embed a lower quality JPEG. How does the M240 manage it, then? to my eyes, satisfactorily. Edit: technically, of course, this is easy to adjust one's workflow to. But, judging by the number of comments on LUF and elsewhere, this is not an intuitive approach, which is normally the essence of a Leica interface. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share #18 Posted December 17, 2015 I recognize that the embedded images to the DNG files are of worse quality than the ones I have now in my SL, coming from DNG+JPEG files, and... I understand your reasons and I only ask myself what hell they have done with the embedded JPEGs. inner my Leica M. Leica M (24 MG also) has the following options: JPEG fine, JPEG standard, DNG and all the combinatios of DNG with the other types of JPEGs? The same occurs with the M9 (CCD sensor) with still better enlarged image than the M one. It seems to me, Michael, that Leica reasons have more to do with the capacity of shutting many and fast images per second saved in the buffer. ??? Otherwise I can't understand why the problem of SL is different of the M(s). and the M9P(s). Francisco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share #19 Posted December 17, 2015 Upssss!! I forgot to tell all of you I am not a technician, excuse my possible technic anatemas Francisco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 17, 2015 Share #20 Posted December 17, 2015 Of course you don’t have to delete those JPEG files (as someone who always chooses Raw+JPEG with any camera, I do not), but at least you can. Suppose the JPEG was embedded in the DNG, how would you delete that? An embedded JPEG preview of a comparable quality would take up nearly the same space as the JPEG file, which is while camera vendors usually choose to embed a lower quality JPEG. May I add to your comment by pointing out that the largest JPEGs generated by the SL are about 1/10 the size of the DBG files. So keeping them around as an aid to in-camera review, but separate so that longer term storage is optional, is actually a 10% savings, or not worth worrying about, depending on how you want to look at it. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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