k-hawinkler Posted November 10, 2015 Share #21 Posted November 10, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) As far as I know: - The smearing on the A7 series is only caused by the thick cover glass. What else ? - The color-vignetting is caused by the sensor technology. As a matter of fact, the A7R2 sensor has no color-vignetting with any of my lenses. - The Kolari mod affects smearing and global color-cast, not color-vignetting. I guess the global color-cast is affected due to (partial) removal of the IR filter, which is to be expected. Is there more to these ? Many thanks. You seem to have summarized at least my understanding very well! If there is something else I certainly would like to learn about it. TIA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Hi k-hawinkler, Take a look here M lens performance on the SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share #22 Posted November 10, 2015 Well Jono, I consider this a pretty meaningless statement. "From my observations, if you arbitrarily put the M at 100% and the SL at 75% I think I'd put the A7ii at 25% on the same scale." Here you seem to be in an SL sales mode. The facts please, just the facts! I'm not sure that's entirely fair, Karl-Heinz. We know that Jono is doing detailed testing comparing the A7s2(?) with the SL, and when he is finished, we will get "the facts" (unless he gets discouraged and thinks stuff it, why bother ...). As far as I know, Jono isn't being paid for any of this. I don't think he has access to an A7r2, and I would hate that issue to stop his work. What you achieve with the A7 and your various concoctions of adapters and Leica glass is deeply impressive. Nothing which Jono posts takes away from that, but his general impressions are very useful and informative. What is becoming apparent is that the SL is looking like an effective "Jack of all trades" (I hate that phrase) for Leica glass owners, where for many the Sony was a considerable disappointment. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted November 10, 2015 Share #23 Posted November 10, 2015 "What is becoming apparent is that the SL is looking like an effective "Jack of all trades" (I hate that phrase) for Leica glass owners...." One of the things a person earning money with a camera ( "A Pro") wants, is a camera with "flexibility". Leica is offering that in the SL. They are not trying to be all things to all people. It looks as if they are trying to make a camera that will be 'useful'. Flexibility is important! I saw the "old" Nikon D4 as a very useful, in a broad range of circumstances and paid the price for it! If Leica aspires to gain ground in the "Pro Market" they in my view are going in the right direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 10, 2015 Share #24 Posted November 10, 2015 I'm not sure that's entirely fair, Karl-Heinz. We know that Jono is doing detailed testing comparing the A7s2(?) with the SL, and when he is finished, we will get "the facts" (unless he gets discouraged and thinks stuff it, why bother ...). As far as I know, Jono isn't being paid for any of this. I don't think he has access to an A7r2, and I would hate that issue to stop his work. What you achieve with the A7 and your various concoctions of adapters and Leica glass is deeply impressive. Nothing which Jono posts takes away from that, but his general impressions are very useful and informative. What is becoming apparent is that the SL is looking like an effective "Jack of all trades" (I hate that phrase) for Leica glass owners, where for many the Sony was a considerable disappointment. Cheers John Many thanks John. Fair enough. I'll stop here as I probably already said too much! I actually welcome the SL, as it has some impressive features, great EVF, fast response, ... etc ... and hope a future version will add IBIS, ... etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 10, 2015 Share #25 Posted November 10, 2015 ... What is becoming apparent is that the SL is looking like an effective "Jack of all trades" (I hate that phrase) for Leica glass owners, where for many the Sony was a considerable disappointment. I don't really need the SL to be "the jack of all trades" ... I use my M lenses on the M-P, I don't have any T or S lenses. That I might occasionally use an M lens on the SL is a given, but it suspect it will be rarely—they just fit the M-P so much better. What I do have is R lenses. What I'm looking for is a digital body that works well with them. The SL seems to be perfectly positioned to be that body. I only bought the Sony A7 for specifically that purpose ... to use with R lenses ... and while it did fairly well for the 50mm and up range of lenses, the 19, 24, and 35 produced corner/edge problems that I just didn't like very much. I never really liked the A7 body for itself all that much; it's design and operation just seemed barely acceptable to me. I also never bought an A7 dedicated lens because I was never in love with the body in the first place. The fact that others seem able to put it to great use and get excellent results out of it is completely independent of my experience with it. I applaud their success. I'm just not willing to work that hard at it, I want what I know to be excellent lenses to just work, and the body not to annoy me over-much. So ... M lens performance on the SL is a secondary importance to me. I'm sure it will work fine for some and less fine for others. Since I already have an M for those lenses, it matters little to me one way or the other. I want to see excellent operation with its own lenses and with my existing set of R lenses. Being completely selfish about it, that's all that's truly important... ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted November 10, 2015 Share #26 Posted November 10, 2015 "So ... M lens performance on the SL is a secondary importance to me. I'm sure it will work fine for some and less fine for others. Since I already have an M for those lenses, it matters little to me one way or the other. I want to see excellent operation with its own lenses and with my existing set of R lenses. Being completely selfish about it, that's all that's truly important... ;-)" It should be good at all this stuff – M, R, and SL lenses. It doesn't need to be perfect with the "Ms" and "Rs" but near to it with the SL lenses. ...Just my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted November 10, 2015 Share #27 Posted November 10, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The APO -Vario- Elmarit-SL 90-280 focusing capabilitys needs to be "likity-split" fast....with good focus tracking. Time will tell. Im pulling for Leica! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted November 10, 2015 Share #28 Posted November 10, 2015 Some say that the focus tracking is not up to speed in the pre-production versions? Some Nikon lenses are much better than others... the Nikon 200mm F/2 is blazing fast! etc. etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted November 10, 2015 Share #29 Posted November 10, 2015 I to am very interested in the "M' lenses with the SL. But the conversation seemed to evolve... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #30 Posted November 10, 2015 I respect that and only make my point, as you constantly seem to refer to Sony A7 without providing any evidence so far that I know of. Okay - quick and dirty - this is 100% crops from the bottom right hand corner of the image (slightly compressed to fit in the teeny tiny attachment limit) 28 elmarit on this message Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This one at F4 This one at F8 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This one at F4 This one at F8 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252842-m-lens-performance-on-the-sl/?do=findComment&comment=2925461'>More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #31 Posted November 10, 2015 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 35 'cron at f4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 35 'cron at f4 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252842-m-lens-performance-on-the-sl/?do=findComment&comment=2925462'>More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #32 Posted November 10, 2015 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 35 'cron at f8 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 35 'cron at f8 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252842-m-lens-performance-on-the-sl/?do=findComment&comment=2925463'>More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #33 Posted November 10, 2015 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 50 'lux at f4 50 'lux at f8 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 50 'lux at f4 50 'lux at f8 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/252842-m-lens-performance-on-the-sl/?do=findComment&comment=2925465'>More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #34 Posted November 10, 2015 As far as I know: - The smearing on the A7 series is only caused by the thick cover glass. What else ? - The color-vignetting is caused by the sensor technology. As a matter of fact, the A7R2 sensor has no color-vignetting with any of my lenses. - The Kolari mod affects smearing and global color-cast, not color-vignetting. I guess the global color-cast is affected due to (partial) removal of the IR filter, which is to be expected. Is there more to these ? Well Smearing First evidential I'm not alone in finding that the problems with M lenses on A7 cameras seem to be rather unpredictable - there doesn't seem to be any very clear linear response with a particular lens in particular conditions. Whereas on the SL there is a pretty linear relationship between the softer corners (but no smearing I can see) as the aperture gets wider, and the distance from the subject gets further (ie the rear element is close to the sensor). Second speculative There are lots of other possibilities, but the most likely one seems to be microlens design, where the SL microlenses were designed with a large depth of field and shallow wells - whereas the Sony ones probably aren't Colour Vignetting I couldn't agree more - and from what I've seen the A7r2 addresses a lot of this. I don't know about the Kolari mod. . . . as a pointless aside I have nothing against the A7 cameras - I've owned all of them except the new A7sii and the A7rii. I thought they performed brilliantly with native lenses, especially the 55 FE . . . I wasn't so convinced by the zooms however, and I found it really frustrating shooting with M lenses because I couldn't predict the outcome (except with some telecentric lenses like the WATE and the new 28 summilux which worked pretty well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #35 Posted November 10, 2015 Many thanks John. Fair enough. I'll stop here as I probably already said too much! I actually welcome the SL, as it has some impressive features, great EVF, fast response, ... etc ... and hope a future version will add IBIS, ... etc. HI there Karl-Heinz You're quite right - I should be putting my money where my mouth is! Trouble is that putting together a usable article for something like this is a great deal of work . . . and unlike Sean 1. I don't get paid 2. I have another job as well! although that's probably not much of an excuse! FWIW the samples above were done 1. on a tripod 2. about 2km away 3. I did 3 focus sets for each aperture for each lens and chose the best 4. I nearly bored myself to death! I've also done a similar test in Venice last week (where it was hazier than I would have liked). This time I also included the 28 summicron . . but again, putting together meaninful results is time consuming and supremely boring! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #36 Posted November 10, 2015 Some say that the focus tracking is not up to speed in the pre-production versions? Some Nikon lenses are much better than others... the Nikon 200mm F/2 is blazing fast! etc. etc. HI Jeffry I think the focusing (single shot and continuous) is really good and really fast . . . but like all the other mirrorless cameras I've tried, the tracking focus, although not bad, is not up to the professional dSLR cameras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share #37 Posted November 10, 2015 Not to rub it in, there isn't an A7 shot there that comes close to the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmphoto Posted November 10, 2015 Share #38 Posted November 10, 2015 Not to rub it in, there isn't an A7 shot there that comes close to the SL. 'nuf said. Thanks Jono. Quick and dirty was indeed plenty, and contributes mightily to the discussion to date. The pictures really say it all. Looking forward to an SL arriving here early next week..... Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 10, 2015 Share #39 Posted November 10, 2015 HI there Karl-Heinz You're quite right - I should be putting my money where my mouth is! Trouble is that putting together a usable article for something like this is a great deal of work . . . and unlike Sean 1. I don't get paid 2. I have another job as well! although that's probably not much of an excuse! FWIW the samples above were done 1. on a tripod 2. about 2km away 3. I did 3 focus sets for each aperture for each lens and chose the best 4. I nearly bored myself to death! I've also done a similar test in Venice last week (where it was hazier than I would have liked). This time I also included the 28 summicron . . but again, putting together meaninful results is time consuming and supremely boring! Many thanks Jono indeed! Much appreciated. This will do for me. Hiep (alias hiepphotog on fredmiranda.com and getdpi.com) and I did some comparison shots on Sunday. We used my A7r2 and an A7r2.Kolari.mod (the same camera Lloyd Chambers had for awhile AFAIK) on about 30 or so M and R lenses, mostly M. All infinity shots. We also used some of the same lenses as you, WATE, 28 Cron, 28 Elmarit, 50 Lux ASPH, 50 APO, etc. If it were agreeable to the members here we could also show some corner detail images. But, I don't want to derail the OP's thread! My operating assumption is that if a lens already works very well on the A7r2.Kolari.mod or better on the A7r2 then it ought to work also very well on the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 10, 2015 Share #40 Posted November 10, 2015 Interesting results, Jono! I'd hoped to see some of these same shots on the M typ 240 as well, but I understand there's a lot of work involved. Needless to say, the SL looks to be working pretty well for those lenses. Can't wait for the darn thing to arrive now... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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