IkarusJohn Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share #41 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) If it were agreeable to the members here we could also show some corner detail images. But, I don't want to derail the OP's thread! My operating assumption is that if a lens already works very well on the A7r2.Kolari.mod or better on the A7r2 then it ought to work also very well on the SL. Feel free, Karl-Heinz. My only reservation would be that viewing the corner shots in isolation might not be that instructive (the benefit of Jono's shots is they show the SL performance in context). But, certainly if the A7r2 performs acceptably, and we can see the impact of the Kolari modification, why not. I would hate to see this as a defence of the A7r2. What we're looking at here (hopefully) is how M lenses perform on the SL. Jono's comparisons support (conclusively, I'd say) that the SL is indeed significantly better than the A7s2 in the corners, and Sean's comparisons show that the SL is better in the centre with M lenses, and soft off-axis by comparison to the M with some lenses and sharper off axis with at least one. What will posting A7r2 corner shots establish by comparison? Edited November 10, 2015 by IkarusJohn 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here M lens performance on the SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #42 Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) First evidential I'm not alone in finding that the problems with M lenses on A7 cameras seem to be rather unpredictable - there doesn't seem to be any very clear linear response with a particular lens in particular conditions. Whereas on the SL there is a pretty linear relationship between the softer corners (but no smearing I can see) as the aperture gets wider, and the distance from the subject gets further (ie the rear element is close to the sensor). Thanks for the examples, Jono. Really appreciated. I can only confirm the problem with the A7R2, and as I have posted in another thread, it gets even worse with my beloved SEM 21. About the unpredictable results, the problem is that the thick sensor glass is actually part of the optical path, therefore depending on the lens, focus distance, and subject actual distance and position in the frame, the smearing amount will vary. The way to think about it is imagining the lens MTF curves being dramatically altered. My very personal problem with Leica is the "24 MP will be enough for everyone" argument. This is why I am not buying any more Leica lenses and moving on to Sony-Zeiss. I am sure Sony will have equal or better EVF technology in the A7R3, all the rest is already generations ahead (apart from the 2nd card slot, critical for pros). Second speculative There are lots of other possibilities, but the most likely one seems to be microlens design, where the SL microlenses were designed with a large depth of field and shallow wells - whereas the Sony ones probably aren't I cannot think about any reason why microlenses design could cause smearing. Edited November 11, 2015 by CheshireCat Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #43 Posted November 11, 2015 I only bought the Sony A7 for specifically that purpose ... to use with R lenses ... and while it did fairly well for the 50mm and up range of lenses, the 19, 24, and 35 produced corner/edge problems that I just didn't like very much. Are you sure you did not like the actual resolution of your old R-lenses on a modern high-res sensor ? All of them are retrofocus designs, and I doubt they are dramatically impacted by the cover glass thickness like M designs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 11, 2015 Share #44 Posted November 11, 2015 . My very personal problem with Leica is the "24 MP will be enough for everyone" argument. This is why I am not buying any more Leica lenses and moving on to Sony-Zeiss. I can completely understand that. Sadly I don't think any of my images warrant more than 24mp, and on that basis I appreciate the faster processing (especially for events). I'd like more resolution when computers are much faster! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #45 Posted November 11, 2015 I can completely understand that. Sadly I don't think any of my images warrant more than 24mp, and on that basis I appreciate the faster processing (especially for events). I'd like more resolution when computers are much faster! Since the advent of the M240, computers are already much faster. The price for a much faster computer is much less than the price for a new body and lenses. Bottom line is: The computer is an integral part of your photographic gear. Don't neglect it ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 11, 2015 Share #46 Posted November 11, 2015 I cannot think about any reason why microlenses design could cause smearing. Well I. Certainly can: light hitting them at oblique angles and being deflected into the wrong photo site. To be honest I find it harder to imagine thicker cover glass alone causing it: ........soft corners of course, but smearing? The small diameter FE mount can't improve things either. At least Leica thought about this from the outset! But hey. There isn't any reason for Sony to give a damn about M lenses! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 11, 2015 Share #47 Posted November 11, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Since the advent of the M240, computers are already much faster. The price for a much faster computer is much less than the price for a new body and lenses. Bottom line is: The computer is an integral part of your photographic gear. Don't neglect it ! I travel a lot and like to use laptops. I currently have the fastest Retina display Mac with the largest SSD and the most RAM I could buy ....... And Lightroom is still too slow - even with 24mp files, the S007 files were excruciating! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 11, 2015 Share #48 Posted November 11, 2015 Are you sure you did not like the actual resolution of your old R-lenses on a modern high-res sensor ? All of them are retrofocus designs, and I doubt they are dramatically impacted by the cover glass thickness like M designs. The images out of the Sony A7 with my R lenses showed image aberrations that the same R lenses fitted to the M-P typ 240 do not show. Nothing to do with lens resolution; artifacts and smeary details on the A7 that the lenses do not produce elsewhere. Note that I compared without using any lens codes on the M-P to be fair to the A7. The M-P fitted with R lenses performs well enough but isn't ideally shaped, and the EVF performance not quite fluid enough, to handle as these lenses deserve. The same lenses used on the SL will perform even better, and the ergonomics of the SL, with its ultra fast and very high rez EVF, will be far superior. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenjosh Posted November 11, 2015 Share #49 Posted November 11, 2015 Many thanks Jono indeed! Much appreciated. This will do for me. Hiep (alias hiepphotog on fredmiranda.com and getdpi.com) and I did some comparison shots on Sunday. We used my A7r2 and an A7r2.Kolari.mod (the same camera Lloyd Chambers had for awhile AFAIK) on about 30 or so M and R lenses, mostly M. All infinity shots. We also used some of the same lenses as you, WATE, 28 Cron, 28 Elmarit, 50 Lux ASPH, 50 APO, etc. If it were agreeable to the members here we could also show some corner detail images. But, I don't want to derail the OP's thread! My operating assumption is that if a lens already works very well on the A7r2.Kolari.mod or better on the A7r2 then it ought to work also very well on the SL. I am am not sure why you are obsessed with Sony A7rII. You came and derailed a thread (in Leica forum) in exactly the same fashion and resulted in several members getting banned in another forum (getdpi). Now you want to do the same here even though this thread has nothing to do with Sony. I have the Sony a7rII. I have preordered the Leica SL because it did not work for M lenses. I used kolari mod a7r several weeks and still unsatisfied for M lens use. It also messed up colors from native Sony FE mount lenses. The Sony A7 series work well as far as IQ with native lenses. So Sony has nothing to be ashamed of. Hope we can get back to Leica SL and M lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 11, 2015 Share #50 Posted November 11, 2015 I am am not sure why you are obsessed with Sony A7rII. You came and derailed a thread (in Leica forum) in exactly the same fashion and resulted in several members getting banned in another forum (getdpi). Now you want to do the same here even though this thread has nothing to do with Sony. I have the Sony a7rII. I have preordered the Leica SL because it did not work for M lenses. I used kolari mod a7r several weeks and still unsatisfied for M lens use. It also messed up colors from native Sony FE mount lenses. The Sony A7 series work well as far as IQ with native lenses. So Sony has nothing to be ashamed of. Hope we can get back to Leica SL and M lenses. Sorry, I am not obsessed and have no intention to derail this thread. Over at getdpi Godfrey managed all by himself to get himself banned. In fact I supported Jono to get him back on. BTW, Godfrey is already back in good graces. Ghee! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 11, 2015 Share #51 Posted November 11, 2015 Feel free, Karl-Heinz. My only reservation would be that viewing the corner shots in isolation might not be that instructive (the benefit of Jono's shots is they show the SL performance in context). But, certainly if the A7r2 performs acceptably, and we can see the impact of the Kolari modification, why not. I would hate to see this as a defence of the A7r2. What we're looking at here (hopefully) is how M lenses perform on the SL. Jono's comparisons support (conclusively, I'd say) that the SL is indeed significantly better than the A7s2 in the corners, and Sean's comparisons show that the SL is better in the centre with M lenses, and soft off-axis by comparison to the M with some lenses and sharper off axis with at least one. What will posting A7r2 corner shots establish by comparison? Thank you John. I agree with you, this is the wrong thread to present that information. I might start a thread comparing how different Leica lenses behave on A7r2 and A7r2.mod. Certainly on another forum, maybe even here at LUF. Thanks again. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 11, 2015 Share #52 Posted November 11, 2015 Sorry, I am not obsessed and have no intention to derail this thread. Over at getdpi Godfrey managed all by himself to get himself banned. In fact I supported Jono to get him back on. BTW, Godfrey is already back in good graces. Ghee! I would disagree with that, but it's rude to discuss things behind the principals' backs. So, no further about it. However, I do find your interjection of the Sony A7 whatever into every and any conversation to be a bit discourteous of the focus of this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenjosh Posted November 11, 2015 Share #53 Posted November 11, 2015 Sorry, I am not obsessed and have no intention to derail this thread. Over at getdpi Godfrey managed all by himself to get himself banned. In fact I supported Jono to get him back on. BTW, Godfrey is already back in good graces. Ghee! Any member who supported Godfrey got banned. They are still banned. I believe Guy Mancuso had a bad day and went too far, so I am not blaming you entirely. Anyway let's get back to Leica SL atleast in Leica forum. Having said that, I would encourage and actually appreciate if you would post the Kolari mod tests in any other thread that you start and post a link in this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 11, 2015 Share #54 Posted November 11, 2015 Any member who supported Godfrey got banned. They are still banned. I believe Guy Mancuso had a bad day and went too far, so I am not blaming you entirely. Anyway let's get back to Leica SL atleast in Leica forum. Having said that, I would encourage and actually appreciate if you would post the Kolari mod tests in any other thread that you start and post a link in this thread. Thanks. I was referring to this. http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/56504-fun-leica-sl-digital-4.html#post668264 post# 153 http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/56504-fun-leica-sl-digital-4.html#post668467 post# 180 I was not aware of anybody else being banned until you said so. Thanks for letting me know. So, if Jono starts an effort to get them back on, of course, I will support Jono publicly for that as well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBabyEarl Posted November 11, 2015 Share #55 Posted November 11, 2015 Jono... Thank you so much for all your work thus far. I'm really wondering if you think that for the interim an SL would be the choice over an M-P 240? The reason being is that if you were to only have one for the moment the SL is brand new and seems to work fairly well with M lenses. It seems that a new M is likely to come out within the next year and worse comes to worst you could flip the SL at that time for more than say a 3+ year old M. Does that make sense? In other words, if you could only have one and wanted to use M lenses- which one?? Thank you! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted November 11, 2015 Share #56 Posted November 11, 2015 Okay - quick and dirty - this is 100% crops from the bottom right hand corner of the image (slightly compressed to fit in the teeny tiny attachment limit) 28 elmarit on this message 28 elmarit at f4.jpg This one at F4 28 elmarit at f8.jpg This one at F8 YIKES! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 11, 2015 Share #57 Posted November 11, 2015 Thank you so much Jono. That was exactly what I was looking for, and kind of expected. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #58 Posted November 11, 2015 Well I. Certainly can: light hitting them at oblique angles and being deflected into the wrong photo site. To be honest I find it harder to imagine thicker cover glass alone causing it: ........soft corners of course, but smearing? I don't think a microlens could deflect light over more than an adjacent sensel. If light were deflected by a microlens into the "wrong photo site" then you would still have full resolution, just shifted to the adjacent sensel. If instead the microlenses had problems only with some light frequencies (internal refraction), you would see the classical color-vignetting (but the A7R2 has none). Add the fact that the smearing effect is similar on all A7 sensors, regardless of sensor resolution, and the fact the Kolari mod greatly improves the performance without touching the microlenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #59 Posted November 11, 2015 I travel a lot and like to use laptops. I currently have the fastest Retina display Mac with the largest SSD and the most RAM I could buy ....... And Lightroom is still too slow - even with 24mp files, the S007 files were excruciating! Fair enough. Speed is very subjective. I certainly can't complain, but I use a Mac Pro desktop Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 11, 2015 Share #60 Posted November 11, 2015 You came and derailed a thread (in Leica forum) in exactly the same fashion and resulted in several members getting banned in another forum (getdpi). Now you want to do the same here even though this thread has nothing to do with Sony. Several people in this forum are shooting M lenses with a Sony camera. It is natural and very instructive for them (myself included) to compare the performance of SL+M to Sony+M. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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