colonel Posted January 28, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 28, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Who agrees with my reasoning, or perhaps has another view ?: This is my summary: 1. Leica X1. Best lens. One of the best APS-C sensors. Low on features. Not the fastest in operation. No view finder. 230K screen. Beautiful built. 36mm equiv. 2. Sony Nex-5. Best Sensor. Current lenses disappointing. Bulky with the 18-55mm, 17mm (equiv. 24mm) a bit wide for walk about 3. Canon S95 & Panny LX5. Ticks many the boxes but definitiely not sensor. I used both and was quite disappointed (from a DSLR perspective) 4. Sigma DP2S. Very good lens. Good sensor. Good build. Not the fastest in operation. Slightly bulkier then X1 but better then the rest.41mm equiv. 5. Olympus EPL1, EP1, Panny GF1. Tried GF1 and EP1, sensor really second rate (especially dynamic range). Quite bulky 6. Fuji X100. Not out yet. Lens and sensor unknown. I expect sensor to be quite good, lens to be good but not Leica. Very cool technology, especially on viewfinder. Bulky, seems same size as M9 My result was Leica first with Sigma & Sony close behind. I am reticent to use the Sony with an adaptor for a leica lens. This gets very expensive and then only manual focus. I think I'll get the Leica. Its too expensive but has this jewel like quality. Plus it has 2 year warranty and a copy of adobe lightroom, which is worth £199 to me as I was going to buy it anyhow. What do other people think who have made this decision ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Hi colonel, Take a look here Ultimate pocket camera: X1 vs Nex vs S95 vs DP2S vs Oly vs Panny vs Fuji. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wda Posted January 28, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 28, 2011 Colonel, Welcome to the forum and well analysed according to your experience and judgement. But then, I am rather biased having owned an X1 since first launch. All I can say is that I have learned to work within its capabilities and appreciate both lens performance and build quality. It is excellent as a highly competent lone carry-anywhere camera, while proving to be a super alternative camera with a bigger travel kit. I am sure you will be pleased with it, particularly as you enter ownership more or less knowing the facts. A small accessory you might consider is the Leica table tripod and B&S head, which allows the camera to be used indoors for static interiors, with full manual control. It just extends its usefulness on those occasions when you are not carrying a system camera with faster lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted January 28, 2011 Colonel, Welcome to the forum and well analysed according to your experience and judgement. But then, I am rather biased having owned an X1 since first launch. All I can say is that I have learned to work within its capabilities and appreciate both lens performance and build quality. It is excellent as a highly competent lone carry-anywhere camera, while proving to be a super alternative camera with a bigger travel kit. I am sure you will be pleased with it, particularly as you enter ownership more or less knowing the facts. A small accessory you might consider is the Leica table tripod and B&S head, which allows the camera to be used indoors for static interiors, with full manual control. It just extends its usefulness on those occasions when you are not carrying a system camera with faster lenses. Thanks, just looked at your pictures. Always appreciate someone who posts samples Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted January 28, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 28, 2011 Colonel, I think you've made a very good assessment of these cameras. For me it will always be about image quality. Where Leica is getting blown out of the water is with the small lcd and lcd definition. Also there is a rumor Nikon is going to introduce their take on the mirrorless cam in April. I'm still on the fence and in no hurry and why not, no one seems to have an X1 in stock anyway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted January 28, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 28, 2011 I buy a camera based on 3 parameters: sensor, lens, image processing engine. The X1 fares very well on the 3 counts.Plus superb portability. Buy it! CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted January 28, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 28, 2011 Every single camera you mentioned is a capable camera that people use each day to make great images (even the S95). To me, the X100 seems to check off most boxes, but time will only tell if it actually works as billed. If you didn't like the GF1 or E-P1, then you probably have to go APS-C. The X1 is good, but it isn't a great camera. You have to live with certain short-comings that you don;t have to live with most cameras at its price range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted January 28, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 28, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Colonel, Good summary. I'd rate the DP2 lens as highly as the X1's, though. I sold the DP2 when I bought the X1. Another aps-c sensor option is the Ricoh GXR A12, with the same sensor as the X1. Give me the build quality, lcd screen, ergonomics, haptics and user interface of the Ricoh, up to iso 400 the IQ of the foveon sensor, above iso 400 the IQ of the X1, af speed and file write time of the GF1, an EVF option a la Oly EP2, manual focus implementation a la Ricoh, the lens of either the X1 or the DP2, and all with the X1 design, weight and size. It's all there, all technically doable. Someone just has to combine the right ingredients. Let's wait and see whether the X100 will get closer to my ideal compact camera. Size wise it already looks like a stretch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinj Posted January 29, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 29, 2011 Who agrees with my reasoning, or perhaps has another view ?: This is my summary: 1. Leica X1. Best lens. One of the best APS-C sensors. Low on features. Not the fastest in operation. No view finder. 230K screen. Beautiful built. 36mm equiv. 2. Sony Nex-5. Best Sensor. Current lenses disappointing. Bulky with the 18-55mm, 17mm (equiv. 24mm) a bit wide for walk about 3. Canon S95 & Panny LX5. Ticks many the boxes but definitiely not sensor. I used both and was quite disappointed (from a DSLR perspective) ............... If you are looking for best IQ, then X1 is at the top. To make your list complete, you may want to add Oly XZ1 to it. I have not used it, but the JPG image comparisons at DPReview (Olympus XZ-1 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review ) look very promising. I downloaded the full-size jpg studio shots and they are much better than S95 and LX5 and almost close to the X1. Obviously, studio test shots do not tell the whole story but what I saw was pretty good - the jpgs are typical Oly - sharp and bright. XZ1 is a small sensor camera but the price/performance seems to be good and I may just buy it as a backup for my X1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted January 29, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 29, 2011 Who agrees with my reasoning, or perhaps has another view ?: This is my summary: 1. Leica X1. Best lens. One of the best APS-C sensors. Low on features. Not the fastest in operation. No view finder. 230K screen. Beautiful built. 36mm equiv. 2. Sony Nex-5. Best Sensor. Current lenses disappointing. Bulky with the 18-55mm, 17mm (equiv. 24mm) a bit wide for walk about 3. Canon S95 & Panny LX5. Ticks many the boxes but definitiely not sensor. I used both and was quite disappointed (from a DSLR perspective) 4. Sigma DP2S. Very good lens. Good sensor. Good build. Not the fastest in operation. Slightly bulkier then X1 but better then the rest.41mm equiv. 5. Olympus EPL1, EP1, Panny GF1. Tried GF1 and EP1, sensor really second rate (especially dynamic range). Quite bulky 6. Fuji X100. Not out yet. Lens and sensor unknown. I expect sensor to be quite good, lens to be good but not Leica. Very cool technology, especially on viewfinder. Bulky, seems same size as M9 My result was Leica first with Sigma & Sony close behind. I am reticent to use the Sony with an adaptor for a leica lens. This gets very expensive and then only manual focus. I think I'll get the Leica. Its too expensive but has this jewel like quality. Plus it has 2 year warranty and a copy of adobe lightroom, which is worth £199 to me as I was going to buy it anyhow. What do other people think who have made this decision ? You would think the NEX sensor would be better but my experience so far is that at 3200 iso the X1 is quite a bit better, with far fewer "hot pixels" and more shadow detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted January 29, 2011 You would think the NEX sensor would be better but my experience so far is that at 3200 iso the X1 is quite a bit better, with far fewer "hot pixels" and more shadow detail. thats very intesting to hear perhaps its just, not a bad copy, but a below average copy ? I am still excited about my X1. Going to pick it up on Monday or Tuesday Something about having such a fantastic lens and sensor in such a small package, together with a dial for aperture and one for speed, maks me overlook other things. Version 2 of the software does appear to address some concerns. .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted January 29, 2011 A question to jsrocket, with an X1 and an M8, which has the better quality at similar settings ? I have been offered a perfect M8 (not M8.2) at a good price. Just curious as to the picture quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted January 29, 2011 Colonel, Good summary. I'd rate the DP2 lens as highly as the X1's, though. I sold the DP2 when I bought the X1. Another aps-c sensor option is the Ricoh GXR A12, with the same sensor as the X1. Give me the build quality, lcd screen, ergonomics, haptics and user interface of the Ricoh, up to iso 400 the IQ of the foveon sensor, above iso 400 the IQ of the X1, af speed and file write time of the GF1, an EVF option a la Oly EP2, manual focus implementation a la Ricoh, the lens of either the X1 or the DP2, and all with the X1 design, weight and size. It's all there, all technically doable. Someone just has to combine the right ingredients. Let's wait and see whether the X100 will get closer to my ideal compact camera. Size wise it already looks like a stretch. Hi ecaton, how is the X1 compared to the DP2. Are you glad you changed to the X1 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted January 30, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 30, 2011 Hi ecaton, how is the X1 compared to the DP2. Are you glad you changed to the X1 ? Bot have quirks and warts. As far as IQ is concerned, up to ISO 400 I prefer foveon colors, sharpness, a rendering which is more film like, simply gorgeous and if one does not print bigger than A3+, the image size is more than sufficient for great prints. Above iso 400 the DP2 IQ deteriorates, no question about that, the X1 will clearly beat it in low light. After the second FW update (version 1.04 was the latest) AF was reasonably fast, in good light conditions at least. It struggled a bit, though, in low light. Yes, no typo, it took notoriously slow Sigma less time than Leica to release FW updates for its compact large sensor cameras to address some quirks and among others speed up AF. The implementation of MF is way superior with the DP2, no need to look at the lcd screen. The DP2 is a raw only camera, its jpegs are forgettable, whereas the ones produced by the X1 are quite nice. Size wise, the DP2 holds a slight advantage over the X1. It fits easier into a suit, jacket ... coat pocket, making it a real take anywhere camera. Put a $ 30 Franiec grip and a self retracting lens cap on the DP2, set it on MF, and it becomes a pretty swift street shooter. All in all, the X1 is the more polished "premium" product, including design and build quality. The DP2 is more of a niche camera. Going on a trip with the X1 only is less limiting than with the DP2, mainly because of superior high iso performance. I hope Sigma is working on a DP3 with the new Foveon sensor which will be released in a new DSLR. I will be among the first buyers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share #14 Posted January 30, 2011 Thanks ecaton As I never use a foveon I guess I won't know what I a missing I have seen some spectacular landscape shots with the DP2S, I think all done on a tripod. I had a hands on session with the x1 today (I need to make my final decision in a few days). I was quite frankly a bit shocked at how fast it was compared to what I have heard. Start up time is fast. Focus is slow as it seems to scan back and forth a few more times then I am used to, but was fine for getting a lock and not bad speed (on 1H setting). Picture taking speed is fast and operation of the controls is not bad at all. Finally the screen seems perfectly adequate, if a few years behind the best. Much happier now. I also had a play with the GF2 and new 14mm (28mm equiv) lens. Lovely small package and very well built. Pity they had not improved the sensor. DXOMARK shows the score. Much better then compact sensor but way behind the D300s. If I was satisfied with ISO 800 and below it would be a contender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted January 30, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 30, 2011 I agree with Ecaton on forveon colors, it is very good. Operationally I find the DP2s quirky, maybe I didnt get used to it (my brother's). The big drawback is it is actually a very low MP camera, files are very small so no leeway for cropping. As for the X1, I think there may be some over-expectation probably due to the Leica site which may have led some to getting ideas in the head that it is lightning fast. It is not fast for sure, but definitely usable. Really depends on what you plan to use the camera for. if the fixed 35mm does not work for your kind of intended use, DO NOT buy the X1. If the focal length works, I feel there isnt another camera out there that is as small and good IQ like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted January 30, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 30, 2011 A question to jsrocket, with an X1 and an M8, which has the better quality at similar settings ? I have been offered a perfect M8 (not M8.2) at a good price. Just curious as to the picture quality. Not to usurp jsrocket's reply, I have both X1 and M8 (not M8.2). Making allowance for the fact that the M8 is a system camera and therefore intrinsically potentially more versatile, you need to compare the M8/28mm Elmarit combination to find your answer. In my experience there is little to separate the images from each camera. BUT, the X1 is more likely to be with you on essentially non-photographic outings and is uniquely useful in that role. As I have said many times, I find the X1 a good complement to the M8, provided the M8 has a longer lens than 28mm. It is pointless duplicating that focal length in both cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
h00ligan Posted January 30, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 30, 2011 If you're going all the way down to compact.. don't forget to add this one. Just posted: Olympus XZ-1 review: Digital Photography Review dpreviews' current champ of pocket cams now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted January 31, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 31, 2011 Not to usurp jsrocket's reply, I have both X1 and M8 (not M8.2). Making allowance for the fact that the M8 is a system camera and therefore intrinsically potentially more versatile, you need to compare the M8/28mm Elmarit combination to find your answer. In my experience there is little to separate the images from each camera. BUT, the X1 is more likely to be with you on essentially non-photographic outings and is uniquely useful in that role. As I have said many times, I find the X1 a good complement to the M8, provided the M8 has a longer lens than 28mm. It is pointless duplicating that focal length in both cameras. Ok, I've had the X1 and M8 w/ 28mm elmarit at the same time... and they are just different. I can't agree that it is pointless duplicating focal lengths at all. The AF on the X1 necessitates me having the same focal length on my M8. The M8 is a fast camera that can zone focus easily... it is a true "street" camera, the X1 is not. That said, at anything above ISO 400, I truly believe the X1 will give you better files in most situations (for the most part). They are just too different from each other to compare. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted January 31, 2011 Share #19 Posted January 31, 2011 IMHO end of the day it all boils down to the intended use of the camera in order to decide which is most suitable. Just got my wife the Dlux5, she loved it the moment she saw it in the shop, I put the GF, lx5 next to it and her eyes just zeroed in on it. Best purchase I ever made for a camera seeing her eyes lit up. CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted January 31, 2011 IMHO end of the day it all boils down to the intended use of the camera in order to decide which is most suitable. Just got my wife the Dlux5, she loved it the moment she saw it in the shop, I put the GF, lx5 next to it and her eyes just zeroed in on it. Best purchase I ever made for a camera seeing her eyes lit up. CJ true, but nothing this size with this quality and this ISO performance. so not like there is alot of choice I intend to use it for: street photography, landscapes, outdoors and indoors architecture and people indoors when I can't take my big camera with me. This will typically be on holiday for people, and street photography and architecture when at home. I know there will be howls of protest about people pictures, but I have used slower cameras in the past to good effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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