allamande Posted September 8, 2014 Share #1 Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I kind of feel compelled to share this experience, for what it's worth... I did read lots of reviews (basically, whatever I could find), and looked at the images, particularly the ones posted on this forum before purchasing the camera. I knew that there were some drawbacks, but still wanted to give this camera a try. In the past, I had DLux4 and Digilux 3 and I loved both of those. I wanted to get something like my old DL4 that would complement my M9, one that is small and easy to use, and one that would provide that "Leica look" without a whole lot of PP. The X Vario failed to impress me because of a varitey of reasons: 1. The image quality did not impress. This is a tough one because there are so many posts extolling the IQ out of this camera. Well, I find that the DNG files are ALWAYS overexposed and lack contrast, and they need LOTS of editing. There is a huge difference between the DNG files and the JPGs for any given image. Oddly enough, I was forced to find this out as the camera does not give the user the option to record just DNG. If you want DNG, it comes coupled with JPG (which is quite annoying). It looks like if you want JPGs out of a camera, this might be the camera for you as the JPG files do not seem to need much work and they look infinitely better than the raw DNG files. 2. The ISO starts showing noise at 1600 which was a surprise to me. Everything that I've read claimed that high ISO performance of this camera was spectacular. Well, this is NOT so, at least, not in my experience. Here is an example from DNG, 100% crop, straight out of camera. For me, this is too much noise: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, I know how to get rid of this noise, but that's not the point. I don't want to run a bunch of noise reduction software to get to where I want to go, so this is an important issue. And since the lens is quite slow at either end, this implies lots of PP unless I always shoot in bright daylight (then I don't like the DNG files that look all washed out, without exception). 3. The camera is bulky when you have the hood and the VF attached. It makes it difficult to just drop it into a small padded case (that's in my shoulder bag) like the way I do with my M9. this was another suprise for me. A disappointing situation. 4. The white wheel with EV/flash/self timer is situated poorly that no matter how hard I try, I keep activating the wheel and there is NO way to deactivate this wheel while shooting. Major annoyance, after some hours of shooting. 5. The file recording time is also annoyingly slow and the battery life is short, at least while using the EVF. If the above issues did not exist, I could bring myself to live with this 5th issue. But in their entirety, the problems become too much. Considering the cost of the camera+its accessories, I decided that this was not the camera for me. As I said in the beginning, I decided to write this up so that it might be helpful for someone else who might be considering purchasing this camera. Ece Edited September 8, 2014 by allamande 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, I know how to get rid of this noise, but that's not the point. I don't want to run a bunch of noise reduction software to get to where I want to go, so this is an important issue. And since the lens is quite slow at either end, this implies lots of PP unless I always shoot in bright daylight (then I don't like the DNG files that look all washed out, without exception). 3. The camera is bulky when you have the hood and the VF attached. It makes it difficult to just drop it into a small padded case (that's in my shoulder bag) like the way I do with my M9. this was another suprise for me. A disappointing situation. 4. The white wheel with EV/flash/self timer is situated poorly that no matter how hard I try, I keep activating the wheel and there is NO way to deactivate this wheel while shooting. Major annoyance, after some hours of shooting. 5. The file recording time is also annoyingly slow and the battery life is short, at least while using the EVF. If the above issues did not exist, I could bring myself to live with this 5th issue. But in their entirety, the problems become too much. Considering the cost of the camera+its accessories, I decided that this was not the camera for me. As I said in the beginning, I decided to write this up so that it might be helpful for someone else who might be considering purchasing this camera. Ece ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/233557-why-im-returning-the-x-vario/?do=findComment&comment=2665787'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 Hi allamande, Take a look here Why I'm returning the X Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted September 8, 2014 Share #2 Posted September 8, 2014 Ece, Thanks for the writeup. In your hands your M9 does marvelous images! Any thoughts yet what you will get in place of the X Vario? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
euston Posted September 8, 2014 Share #3 Posted September 8, 2014 I’m sorry to hear this, Ece. It does seem to be a camera that polarises opinion. Those of us who like it, like it a lot. Those who don’t, thoroughly dislike it. All your points are fair comment, though I take a different view on some of them, especially #2. I don’t find the noise at 1600 ISO excessive and, in any case, I don’t mind a bit of noise as long as the detail is there, which it is. Opinions informed by experience are always useful and yours provide a necessary counterbalance to the more enthusiastic assessments which some of us have posted. I’m just sorry that this camera has been such a disappointment for you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allamande Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) K.-H., and Robert, Thank you. I appreciate the vote of confidence and your input. K.-H., I don't know -yet- what I will get to complement my M9. I used to love my DL4. "Upgrading" (so I thought) to LX7 was not a happy experience. I guess the search continues...Any suggestions? Robert, I was really expecting this to work out, especially after seeing all the wonderful images and reports from members like you. As you say, the camera seems to be a great fit for some users; unfortunately it didn't work for me. But the discovery process itself was useful. I appreciate hearing your thoughts and I will continue to enjoy seeing your images with this wonderful camera. Ece Edited September 8, 2014 by allamande Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firoze Posted September 8, 2014 Share #5 Posted September 8, 2014 @ allamande, thanks for the post. Pity you did not connect with the XV. Many of the points raised are valid. In particular, point # 1 where you mention that the DNG files are overexposed - this has been my observation too. Yet I have not seen a single other user mention this. I therefore wonder if this is the normal situation with all XV's, or do only some XV's like yours and mine exhibit this? Would other XV users please share your experience on this issue? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjcb Posted September 8, 2014 Share #6 Posted September 8, 2014 the D-LUX 4 is a great little camera as a companion to your M9 If you want to look into another alternative I'd suggest a Ricoh GR...fantastic little camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DrPix Posted September 8, 2014 Share #7 Posted September 8, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ece! Either your camera is faulty or your DNG converter. I question all your remarks except silver/white button at the rear (real pain in...). Why is anybody buying such sophisticated photo equipment and shoots Jpeg is beyond me. Enclose some pics... no probs with exposure:) Zenfolio | Andrzej Poniatowski | Platanias, Crete May 2014 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carduelis Posted September 8, 2014 Share #8 Posted September 8, 2014 @ allamande, thanks for the post. Pity you did not connect with the XV. Many of the points raised are valid. In particular, point # 1 where you mention that the DNG files are overexposed - this has been my observation too. Yet I have not seen a single other user mention this. I therefore wonder if this is the normal situation with all XV's, or do only some XV's like yours and mine exhibit this? Would other XV users please share your experience on this issue? I do not find overexposure a problem on the X Vario because I always by default tend to shoot at -0.3 as I do on every camera I use. I think it is a straight forward work around on a camera that tends to overexpose. I do agree on point 4 on the position of the white wheel which I sometimes catch and activate the functionality associated with it when it is not required. I think the image quality is much better when imported into Lightroom than it appears from the camera. The quality appears to be similar to my Ricoh GXR with A12 mount, though images appear much sharper from the Ricoh's camera display; the Ricoh is much more responsive than the X Vario though it does not handle noise as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guytou Posted September 8, 2014 Share #9 Posted September 8, 2014 My DNG on Lightroom is not overexposed and I always work with - 1/3. It happens from time to time that I press on the back pad by mistake. Beyond that I am very satisfied with my X Vario the optics of which is excellent and the extraordinary depiction of colors. Guy 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allamande Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted September 8, 2014 Thank you everyone for all your thoughts, comments, and suggestions. I appreciate the input very much. It could very well be that I am doing something wrong. My workflow is always in LR5 with ventures into CS6, as needed. Here is a pair of examples, DNG, and JPG versions, straight out of the camera. Of course, they are resized here and I am not sure that the illustration is fully successful. But just to give you an idea, I am offering these. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The raw files seem to lack contrast and are overexposed. I do agree that I can work around this problem easily. But the degree to which each image is overexposed differs depending on a variety of factors, and setting the EV to -1/3 or so is only a partial solution requiring additional work with at least some of the images. It could be that this particular camera has an issue. I can't tell. All I have to go on is my experience with my other cameras/files. I have no doubt that the optics are superb (I have no technical background to judge this anyway). It comes down to personal usage patterns and expectations, I think. For example, the bulk of the camera becomes an issue for me on two grounds: First, sometimes it contributes to my not being able to hold the camera still and achieve successful results at low shutter speeds (notice the acorn above is OOF) without a tripod. I've never had this problem before; maybe I can get used to the XV if I practice with it long enough. And, second, I can't fit it into any of the padded "pockets" I have that my M9 easily fits. I use these because I can then drop the "pocket" into any bag I'm carrying and access the camera easily anytime. I can get a larger padded pocket for the X Vario, of course, but you see where this is all leading me in the end: to question why I should be doing all this extra stuff to be able to use this camera? Is it worth it? Maybe so. As a side note, on some hiking trips I used to carry both my M9 and my DL4 in my backpack with no trouble at all. I am guessing that the combo with the XV would be too heavy and bulky to carry around (but this is just a hypothesis as I haven't actually tried this). Like I said, it is a very personal thing (usage patterns and what we expect out of our cameras), and I love the images posted from this camera (that's why I bought it!), and will continue to enjoy seeing them here and elsewhere. BTW, Andrzej, your images are superb! Thank you for the link. Peter, I've never tried the Ricoh GR. Thank you for the suggestion. I will take a look. Ece 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The raw files seem to lack contrast and are overexposed. I do agree that I can work around this problem easily. But the degree to which each image is overexposed differs depending on a variety of factors, and setting the EV to -1/3 or so is only a partial solution requiring additional work with at least some of the images. It could be that this particular camera has an issue. I can't tell. All I have to go on is my experience with my other cameras/files. I have no doubt that the optics are superb (I have no technical background to judge this anyway). It comes down to personal usage patterns and expectations, I think. For example, the bulk of the camera becomes an issue for me on two grounds: First, sometimes it contributes to my not being able to hold the camera still and achieve successful results at low shutter speeds (notice the acorn above is OOF) without a tripod. I've never had this problem before; maybe I can get used to the XV if I practice with it long enough. And, second, I can't fit it into any of the padded "pockets" I have that my M9 easily fits. I use these because I can then drop the "pocket" into any bag I'm carrying and access the camera easily anytime. I can get a larger padded pocket for the X Vario, of course, but you see where this is all leading me in the end: to question why I should be doing all this extra stuff to be able to use this camera? Is it worth it? Maybe so. As a side note, on some hiking trips I used to carry both my M9 and my DL4 in my backpack with no trouble at all. I am guessing that the combo with the XV would be too heavy and bulky to carry around (but this is just a hypothesis as I haven't actually tried this). Like I said, it is a very personal thing (usage patterns and what we expect out of our cameras), and I love the images posted from this camera (that's why I bought it!), and will continue to enjoy seeing them here and elsewhere. BTW, Andrzej, your images are superb! Thank you for the link. Peter, I've never tried the Ricoh GR. Thank you for the suggestion. I will take a look. Ece ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/233557-why-im-returning-the-x-vario/?do=findComment&comment=2666185'>More sharing options...
euston Posted September 10, 2014 Share #11 Posted September 10, 2014 Ece, I use the same processing software as you and I also sometimes find that I need to darken the exposure but usually only very slightly. I don’t know how my JPEGs compare with my DNGs because I set Lightroom not to upload the JPEGs as separate files, so I only ever see the DNGs on the computer. Getting the exposure right in the camera can sometimes be tricky, especially when using Auto Focus. In AF, exposure and focus are locked together. Half pressing the shutter button locks both, which means that you can’t meter off one part of the scene and focus on another. To do that you have to use Manual Focus, which leaves you free to point the camera anywhere in the scene to set the exposure and then recompose, just as you would with an M series camera. I expect you’ve worked all that out already but I thought I’d mention it for the sake of anyone who hasn’t. Also, I’m never sure how much to trust the multi-point exposure setting so more often than not I use centre weighted on the assumption that it will give me exposure results similar to my M9. I don’t think the X Vario is at its best in auto mode. Use it as if it were essentially a manual camera and you have much more of what I think of as a Leica-like experience. I think you might get the results you want from this camera in time but there’s no point in persisting with it if its size makes it awkward for you to carry and handle. There’s nothing worse than a camera that doesn’t feel right in the hand. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guytou Posted September 10, 2014 Share #12 Posted September 10, 2014 Dear allamande, The images which you present seem me correct with a normal difference between files DNG and JPEG. Files JPEG leave the device modified by the manufacturer's software. They can be used thus. The DNG leave rough the camera and can be handled better in a software like Lightroom, for example. But perhaps that, quite simply, this X Vario is not made for you… Personally, I find it superb, with an optics of exceptional quality and one made splendid of the colors ! The sum of its qualities of X Vario is much higher than that of its small defects. Guy 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted September 10, 2014 Share #13 Posted September 10, 2014 Hi, well I think it's best if the original Poster returns the XV.. Nothing worse than a moaner... Sometimes what we want & choose are just not right for us personally.. I found the XV to be be an honest camera to work with, it does not tolerate those that just need a P&S.... Getting to understand it is a definite learning curve & I learn something every day.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOM51 Posted September 10, 2014 Share #14 Posted September 10, 2014 here my experience: 1.- DNG vs JPG. In all cameras I have had the JPGs OOC are better looking than the RAW (or DNG). That is normal as the JPGs are processed and the RAW is not. Just 15 seconds work in Lightroom and the RAW is much better that the JPG. But each person should decide for itself, just don't expect the RAW file OOC to be better than a JPG. 2.- Noise in RAW, again the RAW is not processed like the JPG. In lichtroom set the slider for RAW to value 25, and the 'problem' is solved. If you don't want to process the picture in Lightroom, just shoot JPG. 3. Bulk. I agree, it's bulky, so are similar cameras with similar lenses. 4. White wheel. I purchased the grip and I don't have this problem anymore. 5.- file recording time. I purchased a 45 mb/s SD card and it flies. Really fast recording time. 6.- Battery life. I purchased an extra battery based on comments from others, however I can shoot a whole day with a single battery without problem. My big problem is getting sharp pictures on slow shutter times. Without a tripod I just don't get sharp pictures bellow 1/125s. My cameras before the XV all had some form of image stabilization and I didn't have this problem. However the pictures taken from tripod, my god they are super sharp. They are excellent. I like the JPG's but the RAWs (DNG) are excellent with lots of dynamic range, you can get a lot of highlight detail back in Lightroom 5. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted September 10, 2014 Share #15 Posted September 10, 2014 Hi JOM51, I have not had the slow shutter problem, I might be teaching my momma to suck eggs, but, have you tried leaning against a wall or a door.. something to support you.. the new lightweight tripods whilst expensive are pretty cool... Sometimes I will set my camera on Timer and hold it firmly against a doorpost or another static structure......... You can always rotate the image during PP.. Regards, L. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOM51 Posted September 10, 2014 Share #16 Posted September 10, 2014 Hi JOM51, I have not had the slow shutter problem, I might be teaching my momma to suck eggs, but, have you tried leaning against a wall or a door.. something to support you..the new lightweight tripods whilst expensive are pretty cool... Sometimes I will set my camera on Timer and hold it firmly against a doorpost or another static structure......... You can always rotate the image during PP.. Regards, L. It's a new problem, may be my age is showing up. And indeed I bought a lightweight tripod (for when I don't feel like taking the big one). I also tried a monopod and it helps also a lot. I like the monopod better than leaning on a wall. All in all my experience is that when I use a tripod I take more care, I think more about the subject, and my photos are better than when I take pictures by hand. So the tripod works for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
euston Posted September 10, 2014 Share #17 Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Hi, well I think it's best if the original Poster returns the XV.. Nothing worse than a moaner... That's an undeserved rebuke to someone who is giving their honest assessment of how the camera suits them. When you've been a member of this site a little longer you'll get to know who you can trust. I think you'll find that allamande tells it as she sees it and offers opinions that you can rely on, even when your own point of view is different. Edited September 10, 2014 by euston 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allamande Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted September 10, 2014 I don’t think the X Vario is at its best in auto mode. Use it as if it were essentially a manual camera and you have much more of what I think of as a Leica-like experience. Robert, I am beginning to arrive at this same conclusion after spending 2 more days with the camera. I realize this is nowhere near enough time to have a good understanding of the workings of XV and how I can best interact with it. But I am still experimenting. Your practice of not importing the JPGs into LR never occured to me and would certainly cut the "clutter" from the beginning of the workflow. Mike gave me his presets for LR to try out on the raw files. This seems to work like magic (no wonder his work is always so fantastic!), on multiple levels, cutting down the PP time, bringing the enjoyment back... I also took the grip off the camera and this seems to help with the handling (I know, this is contrary to what most people experience but then I never used a grip with my Ms either). I noticed that I don't trip the wheel when the grip is not on. At least, so far this is what happened. Maybe I am now too conscious of the wheel's presence and being extra cautious. I do appreciate everyone's taking the time to give feedback and make suggestions to address my issues as I explained them here. I have a long time brand loyalty, starting with my dad's Leicas. I still use my M6 with great joy, loved my M8, Digilux 3 and DLux4, and loving my M9 more with every shutter click. This is the first time where a Leica didn't feel right for me. It's not moaning but maybe a tantrum because a Leica let me down for the first time. This doesn't mean that the XV is bad in any way, it simply means that it is possible that this camera is not a good fit for everyone, even a long time Leica user and fan like me. Thank you for listening. Ece 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted September 10, 2014 Share #19 Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Nice to see you are giving it a bit more of a go ........ even if you let it go eventually ..... The main problem is getting your head round the fact that it is neither a point and shoot that you can leave on 'auto everything' ....... nor a miniature zoom M9 ....... I too only ever use Centre-weighted or Spot metering...... set on -0.3 ev by default .... am prepared to override by dialling in more compensation or going to manual ..... and only ever download the DNG's to LR. A fair few images 'look' overexposed ...... but if you check the histograms they usually seem to be spot on and give the widest DR possible for the subject .... which is what you would want for the greatest leeway in processing ....... With any images that I don't initially like I press AUTO on the Tone panel ..... which results in a hideous image ...... and then roll back the exposure by about -1 on the slider .... and the results are instantly M9 like ...... Nearly always works wonders. Mixed content images and particularly macro shots are nearly always perfect OOC. The XV has it's little quirks but I have found the DNG output excellent and easily up to M9 standard ..... and the images on the XV part of forum are of a uniformly higher standard than the M8/9/240/T counterparts ..... and I post on them all so I can't be accused of being biased ! Edited September 10, 2014 by thighslapper 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunos Posted September 11, 2014 Share #20 Posted September 11, 2014 Mike gave me his presets for LR to try out on the raw files. This seems to work like magic (no wonder his work is always so fantastic!), on multiple levels, cutting down the PP time, bringing the enjoyment back... I don't suppose these could be shared with the group, as this is my biggest bug-bare with the camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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