Black 35 Summicron 8 Element

[barnack]

Does anyone know the rarity of the 8 element 35mm f/2 Summicron? Optically, is it the same as the chrome version? Thanks for any replys!

[luigi bertolotti]

Optically, the black and the chrome "8 elements" are surely identical; regarding the respective rarity... difficult to give an answer (surely super rare is the black screw mount version, that is scarce also in chrome), given that the 21-22.000 Summicrons 35 8 element were built in a number of basic variants : black/chrome - Wetzlar/Canada - with/without goggles for M3 ... a number of combinations whose respective numbers, for what I know, have never been precisely publicized.

[echorec]

Do you have the black paint or black anodized? The black paint sells for quite a bit more than the anodized.

[Erik van Straten]

Yes, but the anodized version is also very expensive - if it's the 8 element version.
However, I think that the black paint version of this lens is in fact not very disirable, because the paint is applied for the majority of the parts on alumininum and not, as on the black paint Summicron 1st type rigid, on brass. (On the latter with the exeption of the focusing ring, wich is stainless steel.)
Black paint holds very badly on aluminium, as can also be seen on other used black paint lenses of the period, like the Summilux. The paint peels of easely, wich was the reason for Leitz to commit themselves to anodize the aluminium parts.

Erik.

[luigi bertolotti]

True, Erk, but of course, rarity IS rarity, and we know what this means for collectors... if the black painted is really so scarce, no surprise if it's valued more than the more "sane" black anodized...
anyway, wow, if I had lot of money to throw... I'd like a lot to target the complete set of Cron 35 variants (my almost complete set of Elmars 90 hasn't been so costly to put ensemble in 20 years or so... )

[echorec]

Erik - you are right about the paint but they are desirable. I´d say you get up to $4000 for a clean black paint and maybe $2500 for the anodized.

Luigi - that would be a great target, I would also like to have that but a bit too costly for me too at the moment - missing both 8 element black versions and the chrome version 4.

[sabears]

Hi folks,actually black paint versions were all partly painted ,partly anodized.They never made 100% black paint barrell.
Prices and rarity are almost the same even if the most scarce seems to be the last high serial number version (I mean 2.27x.) yellow scale number (instead of red).

[Erik van Straten]

I've seen completely painted, but I don't recall where and when. If what you say is true, then only the bayonet ring would be painted, for that's the only brass part of the lens, the rest is aluminium.
Later black Summicrons 50 and all black Summiluxes 50 are indeed mixed up paint/anodize as far as I know.
When sabears gives me his e-mail adress, I can send him a picture of a completely black painted Summicron 35mm f2.

Erik.

[sabears]

Erik ,you have a message.


Another things is that dealer usually call black paint even if they sell black chrome,for example look this: https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/su...ack-p-285.html.
Even earlier samples of these lenses are almost all bl/chr.,it seems that black/chrome finishing is the standard black finishing for these kind of lenses from the beginning.
A long time ago a long experienced man in metal finishing told me that the shape of 35 ,so different from 50,it's not easy to paint (paint don't stay easy on these so regular little surfaces) and that perhaps for this reason leica choice was for anodized from the first.

[Erik van Straten]

Maybe you're right. But the problem for the painting is the aluminium. The Summicron 35mm 8 elements is made from aluminium. Aluminium cannot be painted. The form has nothing to do with it.
Do you know the little beautiful Color Skopar 50mm F2.5? Made out of brass and beautifully painted. It has almost the same form as the 35mm Summicron 8 elements. A little jewel.

Erik.

[sabears]

I agree Erik,aluminium is probably the key .

[leicaswe]

I bought three lenses a couple of years ago. One of them were the black 35 ´cron 1st version. I didn´t know what I´d bought, soon I was told about it. It was in B+/A- cond. I thought it was to rare and expensive for me to use so I sold it to Leicashop for 2000 euros. They sold it later for 3000 euros. The man who sold it to me made some money, I made some money and Leicashop made some money : ).

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by leicaswe

I bought three lenses a couple of years ago. One of them were the black 35 ´cron 1st version. I didn´t know what I´d bought, soon I was told about it. It was in B+/A- cond. I thought it was to rare and expensive for me to use so I sold it to Leicashop for 2000 euros. They sold it later for 3000 euros. The man who sold it to me made some money, I made some money and Leicashop made some money : ).

... and a collector acquired an item he was looking for... so everyone is happy

[engelfangen]

Originally Posted by sabears

Prices and rarity are almost the same even if the most scarce seems to be the last high serial number version (I mean 2.27x.) yellow scale number (instead of red).

The yellow numbers starts already before, mine is 219x.
best regards Marc :-)

[wizard]

Originally Posted by leicaswe

I sold it to Leicashop for 2000 euros. They sold it later for 3000 euros.

And if it is an LTM version, it even sells for over 4000 euros ...

https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/su...lack-p-99.html

Andy

[sabears]

It's true Mark,they were made in very small numbers here and there, less than first years produtions (but even these ones were a limited production).

Andy,I had in my hands the one in screw mount now in Wien,it is a special order high serial screw mount (perhaps) ,it's not made with a good finishing ,it's bubbling here and there even if it's black anodized,but it's a strange black,a little satin finish ,to me seems blacked on chrome,but it's my opinion.

cheers

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Originally Posted by sabears

It's true Mark,they were made in very small numbers here and there, less than first years produtions (but even these ones were a limited production).

Andy,I had in my hands the one in screw mount now in Wien,it is a special order high serial screw mount (perhaps) ,it's not made with a good finishing ,it's bubbling here and there even if it's black anodized,but it's a strange black,a little satin finish ,to me seems blacked on chrome,but it's my opinion.

cheers

Hello, Experts,

I am a bit confused. I own a black screw Canada 35/2 #165..... ; a Canada chrome screw w/ bayonet adapter # 174.... the one with a tiny screw in the adapter and a Wetzlar black bayonet # 231.... which are all in excellent condition in spite of quite a lot of use except for the black screw one, especially # 231.... These should all be 8 element first types, as far as I know. I also have a version IV late type. Versions 2 and 3 did not appeal to me visually (slide film, mainly Kodachrome 25/64) so I never owned one.

Question: Am I right that both Canadian and the Wezlar lenses are type I ?

Thanks,
Teddy

[sabears]

Hi Teddy,in order to answer I have to know another number in the last specimen Wetzlar 231...,because from 2316... we have type II,the others are for sure type I.
Compliments for your beautiful lenses!

Cheers,M.

[peter_n]

Interesting thread. I use a late Wetzlar serial nr. 2313xxx which is chrome and it produces beautiful images. However the lens has been very heavily used and looks really terrible, has never been CLA'd and I am about to send it in for service. It had occurred to me that it might look a bit better if it was painted or anodized black at the same time. That screwmount looks pretty good to me, especially pic. nr. 3 which shows a close-up of the anodized finish. As a practical matter, is it wise to get an original chrome sample redone with a black anodized finish? It would certainly look better with my black MP3 but I'm wondering if it would devalue the lens in the future. I'm not planning on selling it but my heirs might...

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Originally Posted by sabears

Hi Teddy,in order to answer I have to know another number in the last specimen Wetzlar 231...,because from 2316... we have type II,the others are for sure type I.
Compliments for your beautiful lenses!

Cheers,M.

Hello again,
It is # 2312886, purchased in 1969 in Hong Kong together with a black (paint) M4. Both have seen a great deal of use but the lense looks quite unscarred and the glass is perfect.
Before that I used a IIIg with a rigid Summicron 50/2. I have used the M/L 35/2 on the latter. The black screw type 35/2 has seen only one or two trials with the IIIg to make sure that the technical aspects were good. The latter lense is identical to the one shown in Lager's book, but has a different serial number. So there must be more than 1 or two around. I bought it many years ago in Japan from a reputable dealer at a rather low price and could not resist. There was no corresponding black finder for sale together with it.
Teddy