Elmarit 28mm first version Wetzlar

[echorec]

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Hello,

 

Could anyone help me with value of this? I have the opportunity to get one but I have no idea how much to offer. Condition is ok, not too worn but absolutely not mint. The owner knows that it´s rare so I am not going to get a bargain. I have seen some Canadian examples for sale but the Wetzlar model seems very rare.

 

Thanks,

 

Gunnar

[rubenkok]

Hello Gunnar,

Maybe this is some help, have a look at

Schouten Select Cameras & Accessories!

or

Collectcamera

__________________

Regards,

Ruben

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[luigi bertolotti]

If you are dealing with a private people, I'd start in the range of 1500 to 2000 Euros... how are the lenses ? And which add-ons are included (hood, caps, box) ? Hood and rear cap were the same for the SA 21 3,4, but seems to me the front cap 14102 was "proprietary".

The Wetzlar is surely rarer than the Ontario... but FWIW there are not precise figures available on this... Schouten sold one 2.061.xxx ... Lager published a 2.061.xxx from Wetzlar and a 2.062.xxx Canad ...my Wetzlar is 2.063.741... and I am sure to have never seen a 2.07x.xxx or above from Wetzlar

[sparkie]

Mine is 206XXXX. Wetzlar, black paint infinity lens release, the rest is black anodized. red scales. the rear deep cap is hard to find. the hood and finder are usually sold separatley. get these as a unit and you may get yourself a good deal. Its all about the CONDITION.

 

Bear in mind that this lens does not meter on any M cameras.

 

The later versions are yellow scales.

 

The Wetzlar red scale versions are the earliest and are collector grade. Much fewer of these were produced than the Midland varieties. This lens along with the BP 35/2.0 1st Vers, BP 50/2.0 Rigid type I & II and BP 50/1.4 make up the original vintage Black Paint lens line up. Give or take the odd 90/2.8 TE FAT in BP/BC or BP 90/2.0 'cron

 

Care to post some pics to show cosmetics?

[luigi bertolotti]

Mine is 206XXXX. Wetzlar, black paint infinity lens release, the rest is black anodized. red scales. the rear deep cap is hard to find. the hood and finder are usually sold separatley. get these as a unit and you may get yourself a good deal. Its all about the CONDITION.

 

Bear in mind that this lens does not meter on any M cameras.

 

The later versions are yellow scales.

 

The Wetzlar red scale versions are the earliest and are collector grade. Much fewer of these were produced than the Midland varieties. This lens along with the BP 35/2.0 1st Vers, BP 50/2.0 Rigid type I & II and BP 50/1.4 make up the original vintage Black Paint lens line up. Give or take the odd 90/2.8 TE FAT in BP/BC or BP 90/2.0 'cron

 

Care to post some pics to show cosmetics?

 

Thanks, Sparkie... you gave me a good goal for a collector... the first black set of the '60s... besides the Elmarit 28 I have the 35/2 8 elements... maybe I'll start to search for the 50s; these sub-collections are nice... I completed time ago the Elmar 90 line (7 items from Fat to 3 elements... I decided not to discriminate between SM and BM when other details are the same); and the 135 set is at a good point (even if I do not plan for the non-standard Elmar 4,5 with matching body... )

 

Just a detail about your precise statements on the 28 : do you mean that do exist Wetzlar 28 with YELLOW scale ?

[echorec]

Thanks Gentlemen!

 

I think I could get it for around 1500 Euro but the condition is not "collector grade". The glass is ok though. No rear cap included. No pictures avaible right now.

 

I´ll let you know if I get it.

 

Best regards,

 

Gunnar

[sparkie]

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Thanks, Sparkie... you gave me a good goal for a collector... the first black set of the '60s... besides the Elmarit 28 I have the 35/2 8 elements... maybe I'll start to search for the 50s; these sub-collections are nice... I completed time ago the Elmar 90 line (7 items from Fat to 3 elements... I decided not to discriminate between SM and BM when other details are the same); and the 135 set is at a good point (even if I do not plan for the non-standard Elmar 4,5 with matching body... )

 

Just a detail about your precise statements on the 28 : do you mean that do exist Wetzlar 28 with YELLOW scale ?

 

 

Hi Luigi, there are many variants of the Black Paint / Black chrome lenses from the late 50's to 60's. All of these for the most part were low production numbers in comparison to the 'standard' chrome lenses (apart from say the 1st Vers 35/1.4 Summinlux Ollux hood type in chrome and the black version which is ultra rare) because they were special order and mostly for pro photographers and journalists.

 

An example of the variants of just one type of lens, for instance the BP 35/2.0 1st V that you have are [only referring to M Mount series here]:

 

1. Very very early, probably the first batch ever made, Wetzlar - the mount is completely brass black paint. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit and the side engraving is 'Germany' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28". Heavy black painted brass lens cap.

 

2. Early Canadian - all black chrome. No black paint parts (except maybe the holding screws). Chrome mount and chrome infinity release button. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit with the side engraving is 'Canada' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28"

 

3. Wetzlar - the mount is chrome, but the last ring is black painted. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit. Side engraving is 'GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28" S/N approx 18XXXXX

 

4. Same as 3. but the last ring is chrome. Closest focusing distance engraved with 28" and all lenses onwards. Batches made with 199XXXX.

 

5. Last of the Black Paint / Black chrome. approx 213XXXX Red scales, GERMANY on the second to last ring. BP lens release. But the infinity lock unit and focusing ring are separate. Light black chrome lens cap

 

6. Wetzlar - All black chrome with Yellow scales. These were the very last 1st V 35/2.0. Made for the late BP M4's. Chrome mount and chrome infinity lens release. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring separate. Side engraving is 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Actually these are harder to find than 4 from my experience of how often they come up. I prefer the BP/red scale versions myself

 

Regarding the 28/2.8 1st version lens with Yellow scales, I can only say that I have seen Canadian ones. Engraved LENS MADE IN CANADA S/N approx 219XXXX with chrome infinity release button. Wetzlar ones may exist with yellow engravings but I have not seen them. I very much doubt they do myself.

[sparkie]

Thanks Gentlemen!

 

I think I could get it for around 1500 Euro but the condition is not "collector grade". The glass is ok though. No rear cap included. No pictures avaible right now.

 

I´ll let you know if I get it.

 

Best regards,

 

Gunnar

 

 

Make sure the glass is clean and clear. This lens is not a high contrast lens btw

[luigi bertolotti]

Hi Luigi, there are many variants of the Black Paint / Black chrome lenses from the late 50's to 60's. All of these for the most part were low production numbers in comparison to the 'standard' chrome lenses (apart from say the 1st Vers 35/1.4 Summinlux Ollux hood type in chrome and the black version which is ultra rare) because they were special order and mostly for pro photographers and journalists.

 

An example of the variants of just one type of lens, for instance the BP 35/2.0 1st V that you have are [only referring to M Mount series here]:

 

1. Very very early, probably the first batch ever made, Wetzlar - the mount is completely brass black paint. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit and the side engraving is 'Germany' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28". Heavy black painted brass lens cap.

 

2. Early Canadian - all black chrome. No black paint parts (except maybe the holding screws). Chrome mount and chrome infinity release button. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit with the side engraving is 'Canada' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28"

 

3. Wetzlar - the mount is chrome, but the last ring is black painted. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit. Side engraving is 'GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28" S/N approx 18XXXXX

 

4. Same as 3. but the last ring is chrome. Closest focusing distance engraved with 28" and all lenses onwards. Batches made with 199XXXX.

 

5. Last of the Black Paint / Black chrome. approx 213XXXX Red scales, GERMANY on the second to last ring. BP lens release. But the infinity lock unit and focusing ring are separate. Light black chrome lens cap

 

6. Wetzlar - All black chrome with Yellow scales. These were the very last 1st V 35/2.0. Made for the late BP M4's. Chrome mount and chrome infinity lens release. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring separate. Side engraving is 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Actually these are harder to find than 4 from my experience of how often they come up. I prefer the BP/red scale versions myself

 

Regarding the 28/2.8 1st version lens with Yellow scales, I can only say that I have seen Canadian ones. Engraved LENS MADE IN CANADA S/N approx 219XXXX with chrome infinity release button. Wetzlar ones may exist with yellow engravings but I have not seen them. I very much doubt they do myself.

 

Wow Sparkie, you're my man ! I adore to read superdetailed informations on "particular" lenses like you did for the 8 elem Cron 35 !!! Have you some personal source of info besides the usal Lager/Van Hasbroek/Laney literature ? If so... maybe can you tell me something about the 180 2,8 for Viso ? I have one (2.082.762) but never found the real production figures... (250-350-400 ?) and apart an old secretive mail from Lager ("this lens may come out from Schneider...") i have never understood well its real history (announced in US only - delivered - quickly cancelled from list - same focal/aperture available for Leicaflex short after, but a totally different lens design...)

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks Gentlemen!

 

I think I could get it for around 1500 Euro but the condition is not "collector grade". The glass is ok though. No rear cap included. No pictures avaible right now.

 

I´ll let you know if I get it.

 

Best regards,

 

Gunnar

 

At 1500 I think is not too much if it is nice ... the rear cap is not rare (as I said, same as Super Angulon) and not a reason to lower significantly the price, but not having it poses a practical problem of storage : std. rear caps for BM don't fit, you can combine the BM lenses coupling accessory with a M body cap... or better, find the Leitz transparent plastic lens container with the elevated BM receptacle (I have one for my SA 21 f4... don't remember if is tall enough for the 28 1st...)

[echorec]

Thanks again for your replies!

 

I will inspect the lens again (it is not in my town) and decide then if I should buy it. I already have the second version 28/2.8 which is one of my favourutes, all categories - a lovely lens. Is the first version very different?

 

I also have a SA 21/4 without rear cap so I might but two of these:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320045293375

[leitz_not_leica]

I bought one just to get the 12501 hood for my 21/3.4, only to discover I already had one (anyone want it?), and resold the lens for $1250, IIRC...clear glass, average wear for it's age. I don't recall where it was made...Canada, I suspect. It was a fine performer...it had the "old" look, but 28s and I never got along.

[sparkie]

Hi Luigi, I have several books but don't have the Lager compendiums although I have glanced them once or twice at Folyes (big bookstore in london). The info on the 35/2.0 8 element lenses is purely from owning and sighting these variants. One of my personal favourites. I don't own all of them, but you build up from years of research and coming across them, at shows, talking to experts, leica technicians, japanese leica magazines, various auctions. I have flown around the world actually for Leica stuff and its quite astonishing when I think about it. The books don't go into such detail on any particular version of a lens. Laney for instance doesn't mention that the 1st Vers 28/2.8 was also made in Canada. People reading this may think the Canadian versions are rarer when in fact they aren't as we know.

 

I actually use my lenses, and only happen to fall into collecting some gear that fascinates me. So I didn't set out to own every lens, camera and prototype made by leitz/leica. Some collectors do of course. But then some collectors focus on a particular category, like military cameras. I just buy and use gear and sometimes I put it aside.

 

Regards the Tele Elmarit 180/2.8 this lens was made in 1965 in a single batch only. Authors state anywhere from 250, 300 or 400 were made. For the US market only E. Leitz NY. S/N approx 2,082,500 - 2,082,800 5 elements in 3 groups, series 8 filter, built in hood, 1,140g Code 11910. Hope this helps

[Leitzmac]

Hello chaps,

 

I have a mint Wetzlar 28/2.8 and I'm happy to say that it's boxed with the hood. What a wonderful find it was, however it was very pricey at £2000 sterling! The pricing may not help very much as the lens echorec is looking at seems to have been moderately used, however I suppose it's a yardstick for what a fantastic example will fetch. Incidentally it appears to meter on my M6 TTL...

[leitz_not_leica]

It may meter, but not without workarounds. One must close focus first, then compensate either in one's head or on the ISO dial...about three-stops.

[engelfangen]

At 1500 I think is not too much if it is nice

Hi!

1500e???? For this price you can almost get the actual 28mm Summicron Asph. Is there any use to spent so much money for an old lens if is not "collectors grade"? I like to photograph too with my old Summicron 35mm 1.V that was mentioned above, but I also only payed less than the half of the price that I payed for my used Summicron 35mm asph.

best regards and don't forget to take pictures its nice weather outside :-)

Marc

[luigi bertolotti]

Hi!

1500e???? For this price you can almost get the actual 28mm Summicron Asph. Is there any use to spent so much money for an old lens if is not "collectors grade"? I like to photograph too with my old Summicron 35mm 1.V that was mentioned above, but I also only payed less than the half of the price that I payed for my used Summicron 35mm asph.

best regards and don't forget to take pictures its nice weather outside :-)

Marc

 

Oh, well, a 28 2,8 Wetzlar 9 elements is by definition a collectible... and its value depends on conditions and packaging : a top condition + hood + caps + box surely is worth more than 2KEuros... 1500 can be rather right if lenses and barrel are fine, but simply some accessory is missing. You have not to confront it with the price of a new lens... the collecor's it's an economy of its own. And ... collectors do not always go for the top at any cost... my Thambar is good on glass, but barrel is so-so and no box / no hood /no cap (filter yes) : I'm happy like this...

[andybarton]

Just a reminder, folks, that there is a B&S section on this forum, where any deals should be done.

 

Thanks

[jc_braconi]

Hello,

Here is the Collectors and Historica section, where, IMHO, people can speak about the value of a specified item if one ask about and are not in the obligation to use their collection for making pictures.

Sincerely

JC

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[john_newell]

I am looking at buying a version 1 35mm Summicron and am interested in following up but thought I'd do so in a separate thread shown in the trackback. Sparkie, if you see this, I'd love further information on the first version 35mm Summicrons!

 

Hi Luigi, there are many variants of the Black Paint / Black chrome lenses from the late 50's to 60's. All of these for the most part were low production numbers in comparison to the 'standard' chrome lenses (apart from say the 1st Vers 35/1.4 Summinlux Ollux hood type in chrome and the black version which is ultra rare) because they were special order and mostly for pro photographers and journalists.

 

An example of the variants of just one type of lens, for instance the BP 35/2.0 1st V that you have are [only referring to M Mount series here]:

 

1. Very very early, probably the first batch ever made, Wetzlar - the mount is completely brass black paint. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit and the side engraving is 'Germany' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28". Heavy black painted brass lens cap.

 

2. Early Canadian - all black chrome. No black paint parts (except maybe the holding screws). Chrome mount and chrome infinity release button. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit with the side engraving is 'Canada' on this same ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28"

 

3. Wetzlar - the mount is chrome, but the last ring is black painted. Part black paint / Part black chrome. Red scales. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring is one unit. Side engraving is 'GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Closest focusing distance engraved with 2'4" instead of 28" S/N approx 18XXXXX

 

4. Same as 3. but the last ring is chrome. Closest focusing distance engraved with 28" and all lenses onwards. Batches made with 199XXXX.

 

5. Last of the Black Paint / Black chrome. approx 213XXXX Red scales, GERMANY on the second to last ring. BP lens release. But the infinity lock unit and focusing ring are separate. Light black chrome lens cap

 

6. Wetzlar - All black chrome with Yellow scales. These were the very last 1st V 35/2.0. Made for the late BP M4's. Chrome mount and chrome infinity lens release. Infinity lock unit and focusing ring separate. Side engraving is 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' on the second to last ring. Actually these are harder to find than 4 from my experience of how often they come up. I prefer the BP/red scale versions myself

 

Regarding the 28/2.8 1st version lens with Yellow scales, I can only say that I have seen Canadian ones. Engraved LENS MADE IN CANADA S/N approx 219XXXX with chrome infinity release button. Wetzlar ones may exist with yellow engravings but I have not seen them. I very much doubt they do myself.