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Help with M4 History


jefflewis

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Hello all,

 

I'm interested in working out some history about my M4 which I purchased about 23 years ago.

 

Here's an image of the camera top plate:

 

http://aussiescan.com/jefflewis/M4.jpg

 

The serial number shows it as one of 100 cameras built in 1967

 

Leica Serial Numbers: M's Sorted by Type

 

4/27/1967 M4 ELC 1178001 1178100 100

 

Apparently the ELC represents Ernst Leitz Canada. The camera is clearly marked Wetzlar Germany.

 

So my questions are:

Was it made in Canada or Germany?

It it any more valueable as it's from such a small batch?

 

Any help, ideas or other interesting historical information is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

ps: here's another photo of my treasured camera:

http://aussiescan.com/jefflewis/Leica.jpg

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This is a question for true experts of REAL Leitz production figures... one must always taken in account that the numbers quoted in Cameraquest, or Puts, or others' represent assigned numbers, and, for production reasons, real numberings can be slightly different.

Anyway... : my idea is that your camera (one of the first M4) belongs to a batch maybe assembled in Canada, but surely with machined parts (top included) coming from Wetzlar factory: according to some authors (example : http://www.jimarnold.org/downloads/leica/leicaM4.pdf) ALL the chrome M4 come from Wetzlar, the blacks being the only with the Ontario top engraving: indeed, I don't remember to have ever seen a "standard" chrome M4 marked Canada on top.

Anyway, your M4 is surely an item that has some specific interest... whether this can reflect into a add-on money value... entirely depends on the fluctuations on the market-

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Hi - the Canada bit was from the ELC in the serial number list. I assumed it meant Ernst Leitz Canada.

 

It's interesting that it's an early one anyways - thanks for the quick replies

 

Luigi - thanks for the article link - very interesting!

Edited by jefflewis
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Now I found the Canada link within the number- range.

 

You seem to be right then, a rare piece !

 

Suppose you find the reason why, when studying J. Lager´s

book. They assembled s/m- Leicas from parts delivered

from Wetzlar in Canada, why not one of it´s successors ?

 

 

Best

GEORG

Edited by k_g_wolf
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Well - that's cool. Being a Canadian, I have a Canadian assembled camera (the first M4s assembled there) and 2 Canadian lenses - 35 and 50mm Summicrons.

 

I bought these items when I worked part time at Queen St Camera in Toronto after selling all my "heavy" Nikon gear to raise funds. I really wanted an M6 but the price was so high back then. I fell in love with M cameras for their elegance, size and quiet operation. The 35mm lens was like a tiny jewel compared to the bulky Nikon gear.

 

Thanks for all the replies!

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I have an M2 whose serial is ELC on the list as well, and it also says Wetzlar on the top.

Mine also sports a "big" M2, much as yours has a "big" M4.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the sign that they're Canadian.

 

My 35 and 90 summicron are both from the great white north as well.

 

Jay

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I have an M2 whose serial is ELC on the list as well, and it also says Wetzlar on the top.

Mine also sports a "big" M2, much as yours has a "big" M4.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the sign that they're Canadian.

 

My 35 and 90 summicron are both from the great white north as well.

 

Jay

 

Uhm... I've never heard of this... intriguing even if small detail... have you some visual proof of this ? Afaik, "M3" "M2" "M4" fonts have always been a little bigger than the following digits of the s/n... I'd be curios to see two tops (M2 or M4), side by side, in which the model's font look of different size... I have under my eyes my std. Wetzlar M4 (1.181.270) and its engraving looks same sized as in the above pic.

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Uhm... I've never heard of this... intriguing even if small detail... have you some visual proof of this ? Afaik, "M3" "M2" "M4" fonts have always been a little bigger than the following digits of the s/n... I'd be curios to see two tops (M2 or M4), side by side, in which the model's font look of different size... I have under my eyes my std. Wetzlar M4 (1.181.270) and its engraving looks same sized as in the above pic.

Luigi,

It is true... at least for the M3.

(comprati questi 2 libri che ti mancano...)

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[...]ALL the chrome M4 come from Wetzlar, the blacks being the only with the Ontario top engraving: indeed, I don't remember to have ever seen a "standard" chrome M4 marked Canada on top.-

 

Take a look at that big auction site in the USA. Item 260665389916

 

Chrome, "Midland, Canada" on top.

 

But there is something questionable. Serial is 1178010*

Does that mean the top plate was replaced?

That would wreck its collectible value, no?

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Take a look at that big auction site in the USA. Item 260665389916

 

Chrome, "Midland, Canada" on top.

 

But there is something questionable. Serial is 1178010*

Does that mean the top plate was replaced?

That would wreck its collectible value, no?

 

The well known NAME of the seller makes this item to be considered with LOT of attention... the s/n with * usually means a factory-duplicated s/n... but all the top indeed can come from the stock of Canadian spare parts this seller put his hands on some years ago... any hipotesis can be made, but I surely wouldn't pay that money for such a camera... :rolleyes:

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Guest Ron (Netherlands)

What puzzles me is that all 'offical' recordings of the first production year of the M4 are stating it was 1967, whereas we could e.g. in the film about a Beatles concert in Munchen in June 1966 that a photog was using an M4 already.....

 

Beatles%20Viso%20IV.JPG

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What puzzles me is that all 'offical' recordings of the first production year of the M4 are stating it was 1967, whereas we could e.g. in the film about a Beatles concert in Munchen in June 1966 that a photog was using an M4 already.....

 

Beatles%20Viso%20IV.JPG

I'm not so sure THAT is a Leica...:confused: ... RF of course... but remembers me some other camera... maybe a Ilford Witness: I doubt that in JUNE 66 there were M4 around.

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