MP shutter speed accuracy

[Gentleman Villain]

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I'm curious to read thoughts from MP owners in regards to the accuracy of MP shutter speeds. There are a few postings online that claim the MP shutter can wander around a bit especially in the shortest speeds. For example, some have complained that the 1/1000 will sometimes clock in at 1/700 etc. My understanding is that several people in the market for a new Leica M will choose the M7 because of it's electronic shutter which is supposedly more accurate and consistent than the MP. Is this true?

 

I've used mechanical shutters in the past that were not exactly perfect. It was never a problem once I got to know the particular quirks of the camera or lens. So it's not necessarily a big deal if the MP shutter speeds wander, but I'd still like to read first-hand experiences. Thanks for any information

[rob_x2004]

Depends who services it.

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[Gentleman Villain]

How are the new MPs straight from the factory?

[NB23]

Depends who services it.

 

No. Not true.

 

Mechanical shutters simply cannot be accurate as electronic shutters. That's the core nature of mechanical shutters. No amount of grease or skilled servicing can fix that.

 

Same as Cars. No accurate and consistent HP count in engines was possible until electronic regulation became the norm. Each and every car used to have different torque and Horse Power levels.

[Steve Ash]

The M7 is more accurate than the MP. In aperture priority it even works stepless. Nevertheless, the MP is a precise tool which will serve you very well.

 

Regards

Steve

[luigi bertolotti]

The only direct experience I had was with my M4... a 1967 item, never CLAed , which I had serviced in 1998: it resulted 1/820 1/460 and... (do not remember other, apart 1/32... ).

Personally, I am not so sure that an electronic shutter is by definition more precise than a mechianical one in fast speeds : real speed is determined by aperture between curtains... which (I think, not completely sure) is anyway determined by mechanical factors; in short times there is, on the contrary, electronic timer vs. clockwork timer... surely more precise and stable in the years.

Edited March 24, 2010 by luigi bertolotti

[rob_x2004]

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Yes its true Ned. Shutter speed accuracy isnt as important as the cloth shutters accelerating and decelerating correctly so you have the wrong end of the stick. It is most visible on higher shutter speeds. I could give a rats arse whether the timing is notionally one sixtieth or a sixty fifth, or a fifteenth or a sixteenth, that has little or no bearing on your exposure. The important thing is consistency a gradated exposure across the frame is a killer. Theres plenty to go wrong with a cloth shutter, and It all depends who services your kit.

Edited March 24, 2010 by rob_x2004

[aesop]

...I have used Leica M mechanical shutters for almost 30 years now and, being mechanical, it is not unreasonable to expect slight variations over a period of time. For me, any changes in actual shutter speeds have not been critical, perhaps because I shoot strictly B&W.

 

I am intrigued by this post. Firstly, because if you dig deeply, you *will* find the variations that are part and parcel of any mechanical set-up. It will be interesting to see how many members respond with examples - I certainly did not notice or catalogue any.

 

Secondly, how easy is it to note the discrepancies, particularly if, like me, you do not go around measuring shutter speeds? Are the variances intermittent or consistent? Progressively linear or "all over the place"?

 

Finally, how often do you get your shutter speeds looked at or serviced?

[rob_x2004]

Presuming you dont want dozens of examples.

I am intrigued how anyone is going to show me how millisecond precise shutter speeds would make the blindest bit of difference though. I guess we will have to rely on theoretical diagrams as proof for that.

 

I think the real reason M7 is percieved as more accurate is that people who cant figure exposure, stuff it up less often leaving it to the camera.

 

 

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[wizard]

Each and every car used to have different torque and Horse Power levels.

 

That is still true today. Put different cars of the same type on a dyno and you will be surprised. The power of an engine has nothing to do with electronic control (I know, you CAN tweak the engine's output by fiddling with the engine software, but let's leave that out for a moment), but depends on mechanical tolerances, with may for example result in a somewhat higher compression ratio, and hence more power.

 

Andy

[rob_x2004]

How are the new MPs straight from the factory?

 

Shithouse. Or at least a lottery.

 

Depends who was assembling them that day.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

The MP is not more then MP Classic with some a la carte mods and some polishing of the gears and re introduces the M4-2 condenser Midland removed, may be coated Ive not looked.

 

The cloth focal plane shutters are dependent on spring tension (two sets) and friction between the blind (two sets) and the camera, they accelerate all the way across the gate and then need to be stopped by the brakes, so they don't rebound.

 

If you have an olde worldy CRT television and 400 ASA film and a f/2 lens then photos of the screen, preferably a test card, will show both leading and trailing blind accelerating at different speeds, properly set up the separation (between the blinds) alters to allow greater uniformity.

 

The fast speeds on non M7 cameras are done by rotation of the leading blind spool, which is not too different from an electronic timer in practice, if the leading blind stalls or is delayed the exposure is not going to be too good.. i.e. even in M7 the spring tension and friction is critical, the M7 electronics were not introduced for accuracy, but for...

 

The cloth shutter is a masterpiece of elegance and simplicity, widely copied. The Lieca ones have adjustments that few other suppliers emulated.

 

Don't expect 1/3 stop accuracy or 100% efficiency at 250, 500 or 1000. If ou are practical you can build your self a photo diode tester, in stereo to do left and right edge speed testing.

 

Noel

[Gentleman Villain]

that's a good point in regards to how realistic it is for the average person to be able to identify milliseconds worth of differences in exposure times

 

My experience is that many people can build an eye to see within 1/6ths of stops in a controlled environment. However , Leicas aren't usually considered studio camera so the shooters don't necessarily have access to a controlled environment. I worked at a commercial studio in the 1990s and we processed all of the 4x5 and 8x10 transparencies in house. The processing and workflow were extremely consistent and we always viewed the final film on high quality balanced light boxes. In that kind of controlled environment, I definitely learned to see within 1/6ths of stops and would routinely push/pull film in 1/6 and 1/3 stop increments to get it perfect for the client. The owner of the studio actually spent several thousand dollars to purchase quality lightboxes as gifts for all of his regular clients so that they would be able to view final film in their agencies using the same consistent color temperature controlled light boxes that we used in the studio. Otherwise, the clients would get the film and just hold it up to a window or overhead light and never be able to really see how precise the original transparencies actually were in terms of exposure & processing.

 

The average film shooter really doesn't have enough control over the process in order to discern really small differences. Maybe that's why leica can get away with 1/2 stop aperture increments on their lenses and full stop shutter speed increments in manual. But it is possible to learn to see very small variations in exposure when working in an extremely controlled environment. I would routinely identify lenses that got "funky" at certain apertures and shutters speeds and would just make mental notes to work around the quirks. It's not such a big deal if a few shutter speeds are slightly off because it's not that hard to compensate for the problem once identified.

 

1/10ths of stops are a totally different story for me I can't see 1/10ths of stops. I've worked with a lot of Broncolor and Elinchrom over the years and have never been able to discern the differences in 1/10s of stops using their electronic controls...I always have to make adjustments in 1/5ths of stops on those lighting systems in order to discern a difference in exposure. I'm sure somebody out there has an eagle eye and can see the 1/10s, but that sure ain't me lol

Edited March 24, 2010 by Gentleman Villain

[rob_x2004]

You are applying your logic to the wrong end of the process. Exposure is always tricky because average 18% etc blah blah across the frame is not always appropriate. No one is going to pick a sixth of a stop at the neg, positive and variation is jsut as likely to be attributable to the character of the lens you have on at the time ... how a lens writes. Sure, like you say, in comparison between two finely processed prints in ideal lighting you might see it.

 

R9 had, arguably the most accurate metering and shutter of the leicas at the time, but when lighting was really nasty and I was in a hurry I got more duds than I ever got in similar circumstances with the MP, because the camera cant know what I am after, and will apply shutter speeds that for other reasons cant work in the circumstances. If time was on my side sure I could dial in corrections but I found in practice I was better off jsut getting on with it in manual, in which case the MP wins hands down, and living with the consequence of my decisions.

 

In predictable lighting the M7 might eat your MP alive. When its nasty all bets are off, and in setting up for a frame, the MP is the fastest camera out there.

[Steve Ash]

may be you find the following reading interesting:

 

M7

 

Regards

Steve

[tobey bilek]

Don Goldberg can generally get them perfect. He has fixed a few of mine that came back from Leica still off.

 

Like said above, it depends on who sets them up.

 

BTW, it does not wander, but is consistent even if not exactly 1/1000. I use my shutter tester and figure out how to compentate with the aperture.

 

Nikon shutters are self calibrating in the better new cameras. They are always perfect.

[Xmas]

Well they can be consistent in the lab on a tester, but the maintenance guy may not try to set them up nominal, e.g. if 1/1000 is too slow then increasing spring tension is not a good idea, if the other adjustments are ineffective.

 

In service they may go off slowly, physical wear, lube changing, (lube does not like water ingress), damage, (e.g. film shards after sprocket hole tear), blinds can get ozone hole burn, and stiffen differentially, or crack.

 

They wont necessarily be consistent, throughout their service life.

 

They can last a long time my IIIc has not had any maintenance in 35 years at least. Still works ok.

 

Eventually the user sends it in for refurb or replacement.

 

Noel

Edited March 24, 2010 by Xmas
spelln

[Gentleman Villain]

may be you find the following reading interesting:

 

M7

 

Regards

Steve

 

Steve, Thanks very much for the link

[normclarke]

Hi.

I think the most relevant thing is that most films exposure tolerance will cover the up to 33% variance in shutter speed that mechanical systems do show. Of course this is mainly neg films and slide film is less tolerant of exposure error. I personnaly think that the MP is only a minimal upgrade of the earlier mechanical M cameras so would be suprised to see a quantum improvement in performance. The M7 is another issue and should exhibit closer adherance to the posted speed.

 

Best,

 

normclarke.

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[gberger]

IMO. the M7 does have one advantage - - you can set the shutter speed, knowing it will be accurate, use a incident light meter to calculate exposure, set the f stop and expect decently-exposed chromes.