M8 Impressions

[reddawn]

Hi

the Leica M8 came to the sunny country of Singapore earlier today, at the official launch of Leica's new products from Photokina 2006. And of course, I got to touch, use and shoot a bunch of pictures.

Interestingly, there were NO restrictions on using your own SD cards to try that the M8, no Leica reps or salesperson really monitoring us as the people queued and took turns to fondle, uhmmm i mean use the only M8 available for hands on during the product launch. A number of people brought their own SD cards and took full advantage of the generous time we were given with the demo unit. I don't have any SD cards, but did take a number of shots with a friend's card and tried out my Summicron 28 f2 on the digital body.

Leica also had a on-the-spot printing station for us to print 8 x 10s from pictures we took with any of the demo units there (the M8, Digilux 3, Vlux, Dlux3) Also, I was rather surprised Leica had up to 5 pretty models mingling among the crowd, allowing us to grab shots with and of them. A more lifestyle approach to marketing, maybe?

I will not repeat what others have said at length, other than the fact that Sean was right on the money in his excellent review of the M8. It felt every bit like a M, except that it felt (and is) thicker, and not having owned the MP, I thought the new covering is rather slippery - I prefer the traditional vulcanite covering. Changing ISO is really painful cumbersome compared to my Canon DSLRS - and let's not get into exposure compensation! Thankfully I'm more of a manual mode shooter. But the auto exposures were quite accurate - no worries about the metering at all.

Having been a M shooter for several years, it also felt weird not having to wind the film. My thumb wanted to do something after every shot.

Even on the LCD, I could guess the image quality is going to be very good (I will of cours be analysing it more once my friend mails me the DNGs from his card). ISO 2500 is rather worrying though - I can see noise even without magnifying the image on the LCD - it certainly looks like I will be using it up to ISO 640 only, falling back on high speed lenses.

Speaking of high speed lenses, I'm very pleased with the 28 cron on this baby. The fingerprint of the lens shows even in digital format - it seems the 28 cron was made for the M8. It's going to be my primary lens on the M8. (Made up my mind to get it after today's positive experiences)

Some interesting facts I learnt about the M8 today:

1) You can turn off the camera and any unfinished images will continue to write to the card. Canon's DSLRs all do this and this is a very welcome fact.

2) You can take off the baseplate, and the camera will still continue to write images to the card, with a huge warning on the LCD about the baseplate being off. This is very reassuring - and surely better than accidentally removing a baseplate off a film M that is halfway through a roll. (ouch!)

3) Buffer is not that big; but there are no delays in shooting as even when the camera is writing images to the card, you can still keep taking photos as soon as the buffer is cleared.

4) shutter noise is quiet and damped - ok not as quiet as a film M but in practical use I don't think it will be much of an issue. The quiet character of the M is preserved!

5) Having come from the 0.58x viewfinder of my M6TTL, the 0.68x viewfinder is surprisingly pleasant to use. i wear glasses and I have no problem seeing the 24mm framelines - I can't see much beyond the framelines but being able to see the widest framelines with good eye relief is very good news to me. I have the 1.25x magnifier, and will be using it when employing lenses 50mm and above.

All in all, a very satisfying experience. I didn't eat much of the high tea they were serving (the launch was at a posh hotel) - the M8 was too distracting!

[sean_reid]

Hi David,

Thanks for the report and for the comments on my review. Don't judge the high ISO performance by what you saw on the LCD. Wait until you see the results of converted RAW files. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Cheers,

Sean

[reddawn]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

Hi David,

Thanks for the report and for the comments on my review. Don't judge the high ISO performance by what you saw on the LCD. Wait until you see the results of converted RAW files. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I agree with not judging shots from the LCD - I'm eager awaiting the DNGs + fine jepgs I shot from my friend's SD card to have a look at the images.

I'm wondering if the camera I used today is a production model - because of the lack of restriction on using our own cards. it just occured to me I did not check the firmware version in my excitement (hopefully the EXIF will have it).

Over here, it is already the 15th of October 2006

[grober]

Originally Posted by reddawn

Hi

All in all, a very satisfying experience. I didn't eat much of the high tea they were serving (the launch was at a posh hotel) - the M8 was too distracting!

Which hotel? Raffles?

Just curious. Your report brings to mind many fond memories of that very memorable hotel...

Thanks!

-g

[reddawn]

Originally Posted by grober

Which hotel? Raffles?

Just curious. Your report brings to mind many fond memories of that very memorable hotel...

Thanks!

-g

It was at the Marina Mandarin, near the Marina Square shopping mall and Suntec City. Quite close to Raffles hotel. I walked past it on my way home earlier

[ns_ng]

Hi,

I was there at the launch and managed to grab a few shots. I brought my 21 asph and the Noctilux. I took a couple of shots at ISO 2500 @f1.0. Using C1 LE as the RAW converter, the image I see is still very noisy. The 0.68x VF just did not cut it for me when using the Noctilux. I will need to use the 1.25 magnifier as I am used to using the Noctilux with a M3. The firmware is 1.05.

N.S.

[SteveYork]

Is noise at higher iso settings the same thing similar to the grain of film? It's not necessarily damning, is it?

[SteveYork]

Dave -- thanks for the information onthe eye relief for eye glass wearers. This is something I was wondering about. I always figured something between a .58 and .72 may be ideal.

[stunsworth]

Steve, they are analagous, but they don't look the same I'm afraid. Digital noise normally looks worse that grain. Converting to b&w often helps to make the noise look more film like.

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by SteveYork

Is noise at higher iso settings the same thing similar to the grain of film? It's not necessarily damning, is it?

It depends on the type of noise. Chrominance (color) noise shows itself as a kind of color blotchinesss that really looks nothing like grain. Luminance noise, if it's consistent across tonality, can look a lot like grain. If one filters the chrominance noise from a high ISO file, the luminance noise that's left can make the picture looks much as if it it was made on high ISO film.

Cheers,

Sean

[hfehsenfeld]

I had some own impressions of the M8 in Berlin and some talks with a Leica representive and fully agree to David and especially to Sean’s review. Two additional remarks and/or questions.

(1) Due to the informations I got neither Adobe nor Apple will support the M8 for use with their fine and revolutionary new software LIGHTROOM and APERTURE. This does mean that all those who shift to one of those fine software products to get rid of jumping between many different software at least for the most cases stay in the dust... Being forced to use a software you didn’t use so far (Capture) just for the images you take with the M8 is in my opinion a serious issue, especially for those using different cameras and don’t like to bother wirth different workflows.
DOES ANYBODY know more about this issue?

(2) As an addendum to Sean’s well-thought critics concerning ergonomics I found another issue. While the camera is writing the data to the SD-card and showing the preview on the monitor YOU CANNOT interrupt ths showing but have to wait a while. This is important if you just want to press SET to immediately change the ISO after a shot.
Sean, did you also make this experience?

Best

Holger

[guy_mancuso]

It is not that you are being forced into using C1 it is a gift . The issue is Adobe and Aperture if there dumb enough not to support it than the recieve no revenue from us. There stupidity not leica's at all. If anything your luckjy as hell. I got Flexcolor with the DMR and crappy at best and had to wait until C1 can make it usable for my DMR like 3 months so your really barking at the wrong tree. Scream at Apple I have several times and what the DMR has been on the market for almost 2 years and still no support from Apple. Lightroom is in beta and supports the DMR now there is NO reason to believe that it won't support the M8 when it goes to final software. leica is giving you a program that works today and frankly on the DMR files it is the best out there. I actually appauld leica not becuase I use it but because they picked the best raw converter out there.

Anytime you are writing to buffer the preview won't work . i will confirm that on the DMR but you are also talking beta firmware and not sure what the final will bring.

[overgaardcom]

I just handled the M8 an hour ago and I must say my impression was much much better than I had expected. I've not seen og touched any digital out there with the same feel.

The sound was nice too.

As for picture quality I will judge that when we get the final software and camera.

Also saw the Vlux and D3. The Vlux was not for me but the D3 was a surprise. I had 100% written off that camera but it was a much nicer experience. I might consider one. Coming from both M and R (but most R) I found the sound and handling familiar.

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by hfehsenfeld

(1) Due to the informations I got neither Adobe nor Apple will support the M8 for use with their fine and revolutionary new software LIGHTROOM and APERTURE.

Cannot say about Apple but it seems that Adobe is already supporting the M8 in ACR and in Lightroom. I remember using both to process the sample DNG posted here. Crappy colors as with the DMR, oversaturated read. C1 was perfect, as usual.

[guy_mancuso]

I was trying to rememeber that I did open that image in lightroom. Thanks Pascal i knew i did now. C1 was better I agree

[pascal_meheut]

I checked again and here it is:

[rvaubel]

Folks

The fact of the matter is, most of us have Photoshop/ACR. And ACR opens just about anything. I have tried eveyones proprieterial software with good results but keep coming back to Photoshop because of the ease in using 4 different cameras with one work flow.

Also, most people don't realise that ACR has provisions for individualy customising the color profile for every camera you own. Its a lot of work (GretaMacbeth here we come!) but you can get the color profile you want rather than what Leica is apparently working on now.

I wouldn't let any post processing software issues disuade anyone from the M8. I will be happy to try CS1 but have a feeling that ultimately I will be back to "good ol' Charlie Brown"

Rex

[jrgeoffrion]

Originally Posted by rvaubel

Folks

The fact of the matter is, most of us have Photoshop/ACR. And ACR opens just about anything. I have tried eveyones proprieterial software with good results but keep coming back to Photoshop because of the ease in using 4 different cameras with one work flow.

Rex,

Most raw converters *should* open all your raw files.

Originally Posted by rvaubel

Also, most people don't realise that ACR has provisions for individualy customising the color profile for every camera you own. Its a lot of work (GretaMacbeth here we come!) but you can get the color profile you want rather than what Leica is apparently working on now.

Indeed, ACR's profile can be 'adjusted' (calibrated as Adobe refers to it). HOWEVER, I can assure you that it is a VERY time consuming process and it is not straightforward. Unfortunately, the DMR profile was so off in ACR that the 'calibration' could not approach that of CaptureOne. From the one file I saw out of the M8, the calibration issues looks very similar.

Sharing my experience having owned and shot with almost every pro digital camera (and owning two DMRs). Just my $0.02

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by jrgeoffrion

Indeed, ACR's profile can be 'adjusted' (calibrated as Adobe refers to it). HOWEVER, I can assure you that it is a VERY time consuming process and it is not straightforward. Unfortunately, the DMR profile was so off in ACR that the 'calibration' could not approach that of CaptureOne. From the one file I saw out of the M8, the calibration issues looks very similar.

I did not invest as much time as jrgeoffrion in calibrating ACR but I tried too to get the best of it and never got close from what another good Raw converter can get out of the DMR's files, not to mention the excellence of C1.

As this almost was the only converter available at the time I got my DMR, I even wrote to Leica and their answer was "yes, use Flexcolor instead".
I read that Lightroom is supposed to use the Rawshooter algorithm. If so, let's hope they will use their calibration as well because even if it was not perfect, it was not oversaturating the red channel beyond all correction.

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by pascal_meheut

.....I did not invest as much time as jrgeoffrion in calibrating ACR.......

Well, I spent a lot of time calibrating My RD1 to ACR. And, no, it is not straightforword. In fact, I would call it a giant pain in the ass Thank God, for Bruce Fraziers instruction set in "Real World Camera RAW" .....and even then?!!

But my point is, once I got my main two cameras calibrated (RD1 and Canon 20D) I could barely tell the difference in the files from each. I've had the same experience with Silkypix, Canon's DPP, and Epson's whatever. It is a royal pain, but at least color wise I can make one look pretty much like the other. I will grant you that out of the box they are quite different. For anyone bordering on sane, it is much better to have a product work well to begin with. However, if Leica doesn't quite succeed in getting their color shit together, it won't be the first time for a camera manufacturer. It would, however, be nice.

Rex
just give me the camera